FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[ChickenCanoe]

I didn't read all of the studies you posted and I agree if one can boost protein by fermenting or sprouting, it's worth it. Specific analysis of which amino acids are present or enhanced is important as well.
The reason soy or field peas is important to add to vegetarian poultry feeds is that their amino acid balance is a good complement to that of corn or other cereal grains.

I mentioned the difference between monogastric and ruminants is that when livestock nutrition is studied, they break them down into these two groups.

 

[Scott H]

Quote:
I'm on board with food grade...wouldn't want MY pickles out of a 5 gallon re purposed oil or diesel bucket. Food grade is easy to find for free at any restaurant. Mine had ranch dressing in it!

 

[IAFarmGirl]

I might be missing something here, but ... both studies analyzed different aspects of fermentation of grains from a nutrition/food safety perspective that seems to me to be entirely independent of any animal species. The baby-food study DID discuss how appealing the food was to humans, but that part of the study had no bearing on the results of the nutritional/safety analysis.

One relevant correlation between these studies and what we're discussing here in this thread is that for human babies in Nigeria and farmed poultry & pigs, what the fermentation of the grains is attempting to do is overcome the nutritional deficiencies of a grain-based diet for an omnivore. The Nigerian study indicates that the traditional concept of fermenting cereal grains is nutritionally sound -- the study proves that fermentation increases the overall protein content of the cereals, and fills in some of the missing amino acids, and makes the food safer (and tastier, but that part of the study isn't as relevant). The information this study provides is important for any omnivore restricted to a grain-based diet (like babies, who have to be fed and can't explain their "cravings", or farm animals who can't do their own shopping and have had their forage range drastically limited).

Fermenting cereal grains for omnivores is an easy, natural solution to a serious problem which has somehow managed to stump modern science.

Publications from the UN describe how wide-spread the traditional practice of fermenting cereal grains and other foods is throughout much of the world. They might not have always had amino acids in mind when developing the traditions, but I'm sure the results of fermentation were obvious enough that the traditions developed. I'd like to see more studies about the specific nutritional boosts of fermentation, particularly fermentation of cereal grains. Yes, I'd love a study of a standard soy-based poultry ration ... that would be icing on the cake.

I think it is marvelous that Beekissed has brought the idea of fermented feed here ... and when she gets back I'm going to ask her how she thought of it.

LeslieDJoyce your posts and the information they contained are GREAT! Just remember that fermenting or anything else for that matter is not going to increase the amount of total protein it just makes the protein that is there more available for the animals use.

Also I don't think anyone has really addressed the issue of the white film that develops on top of the fermented feeds. DO NOT throw it out because of the white film. That is scoby and it is GOOD. It is actually a real visual that the ferment is working properly and that you have good bacteria taking control of the ferment.

My birds have never had anything other than the fermented feed available to them other than what they can find for themselves. I raised a batch of meat birds last summer and at 6 weeks they were weighing between 6 to 7 pounds each and had consumed approximately 10 to 12 pounds of feed (dry measure before fermenting) each. That is about 1/3 the amount of feed I have used to in previous birds to get them to a weight of 5 to 6 pounds in 6 weeks. The batch last summer caught me by surprise at how much they weighed in just 6 weeks.

The posts here today have all been great and very informative.

 

[LindaB220]

I might be missing something here, but ... both studies analyzed different aspects of fermentation of grains from a nutrition/food safety perspective that seems to me to be entirely independent of any animal species. The baby-food study DID discuss how appealing the food was to humans, but that part of the study had no bearing on the results of the nutritional/safety analysis.

One relevant correlation between these studies and what we're discussing here in this thread is that for human babies in Nigeria and farmed poultry & pigs, what the fermentation of the grains is attempting to do is overcome the nutritional deficiencies of a grain-based diet for an omnivore. The Nigerian study indicates that the traditional concept of fermenting cereal grains is nutritionally sound -- the study proves that fermentation increases the overall protein content of the cereals, and fills in some of the missing amino acids, and makes the food safer (and tastier, but that part of the study isn't as relevant). The information this study provides is important for any omnivore restricted to a grain-based diet (like babies, who have to be fed and can't explain their "cravings", or farm animals who can't do their own shopping and have had their forage range drastically limited).

Fermenting cereal grains for omnivores is an easy, natural solution to a serious problem which has somehow managed to stump modern science.

Publications from the UN describe how wide-spread the traditional practice of fermenting cereal grains and other foods is throughout much of the world. They might not have always had amino acids in mind when developing the traditions, but I'm sure the results of fermentation were obvious enough that the traditions developed. I'd like to see more studies about the specific nutritional boosts of fermentation, particularly fermentation of cereal grains. Yes, I'd love a study of a standard soy-based poultry ration ... that would be icing on the cake.

I think it is marvelous that Beekissed has brought the idea of fermented feed here ... and when she gets back I'm going to ask her how she thought of it.

Good point. Fermentation is great for people as well as for animals. It allows us to digest things that we couldn't otherwise. On that point, sorgum and corn have the same amount of proteins and such and is totally GMO free. Chickens will not like it very well if it is not fermented. It's going to be part of my mix.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Just remember that fermenting or anything else for that matter is not going to increase the amount of total protein it just makes the protein that is there more available for the animals use.

Thanks everyone. I'm starting to feel the love.

This part here is of especial interest to me ... what you are saying makes biological sense to me. But conversely it also makes sense to me that some "conversion" of elements occurs during digestion of the food and growth of the culture ...

So ... I need a lecture on how all that works. With science to back it up.

 

[Audio51]

Quote:
That white stuff on top made me nervous too when I first saw it. But I came back here and Bee said it was definitely the "good Stuff" I have been stirring it back in since then. I never really kept track of how much my girls were eating, but I know I am buying feed less often. I had been feeding plan old Layena with some occasional scratch before and they have always been let out into the yard to forage. I always felt like they were a bit on the "Skinny" side though. Since I started with he FF the all feel much more filled out in the breast then they did before. They are still allowed to forage most days and still getting the Layena and scratch, but now the scratch is added to the FF.

I think the whole idea though is to make this simple. If it starts getting too complicated and requiring special starter, fewer people are going to be willing to try it. Most people don't add any kind of starter. I added only a splash of organic ACV with the Mother when I first started it a few months ago, but only because I already had it on hand. I have not added anything else and always backslop the new with the old. They are obviously getting more benefit from it than they were with dry crumbles. I feed less than I did before and that is also another major benefit....less cost to feed the same number of hens.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I think the whole idea though is to make this simple. If it starts getting to complicated and requiring special starter, fewer people are going to be willing to try it. Most people don't add any kind of starter.

SO true! It does need to be simple. That's why I like to invest a fair amount of thought into designing a process for something ... so it can be done as simply, automatically and consistently as possible. Especially if I have to designate the task to the minions. This planning phase is nearly always my favorite part of any project. I adore it. Other people ... not so much!

I was discussing the "starter" idea with a fungus genius yesterday. He said he thought the natural fermentation urges of whatever ferment is happening outside of a laboratory would eventually "take over" any "starter" cultures, and you'd end up with "natural" fermentation anyway ... each batch of ferment will be highly location specific. And ... of course ... whatever is brought in on the feed contributes. Even laboratories have to fight nature on this, and my kitchen is far from "laboratory controlled."

That said, the studies indicate a starter can positively influence the cultures in the ferment ... in a laboratory with otherwise "sanitized" ingredients. I need to check that pig slop study again to see if the experiment was conducted in a laboratory or out in the barn. The other study pushed the idea that the two specific starters used were like magic ingredients ... but it was done in a laboratory and the grains were thoroughly cleaned prior to fermentation (and the water sanitized), so there was likely less vigorous natural fermentation happening in the control (natural ferment) batch, thereby making the control batch more or less irrelevant to "real world" applications. Perhaps simply giving a laboratory-grown sanitized control batch more time to ferment would eventually get to the kinds of nutritional bumps that the laboratory batches done with starter were able to achieve within the 3 day window?

But ... even a $20 investment in starter would have a financial impact in my operation, so I'd have to really believe a starter was worth it before I'd buy one. Hence the research.

 

[Audio51]

Quote:
That financial impact was the big thing for me. I did opt for the food grade buckets, but that was partially a financial factor too. All of my "Home Depot" buckets were in use and were also much bigger than I needed for my 10 girls. I have RA and Fibromyalgia so lifting heavier than needed buckets was out. I went to my local grocery store bakery and they gave me 2 of the smaller buckets (I'm guessing about 2 1/2 gallons) for free...with lids. They were used to hold the icing they use on the birthday cakes.

 

[IAFarmGirl]

Thanks everyone. I'm starting to feel the love.

This part here is of especial interest to me ... what you are saying makes biological sense to me. But conversely it also makes sense to me that some "conversion" of elements occurs during digestion of the food and growth of the culture ...

So ... I need a lecture on how all that works. With science to back it up.

From your own link: http://maxwellsci.com/print/ajfst/v4-1-8.pdf, page 7

"Lactic fermentation has been shown to lower the
levels of proteinase inhibitors in cereal porridges thereby
increasing the availability of essential amino acids such as
lysine, leucine, isoleucine, methionine and even
tryptophan, and consequently improving the protein
quality of cereal grains (Holzapfel, 2002)."

As above fermentation increases the availability of essential amino acids(proteins). Proteinase inhibitors prevent the breakdown of proteins, when you lower these then you make more protein available but you don't make more protein.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

From your own link: http://maxwellsci.com/print/ajfst/v4-1-8.pdf, page 7

"Lactic fermentation has been shown to lower the
levels of proteinase inhibitors in cereal porridges thereby
increasing the availability of essential amino acids such as
lysine, leucine, isoleucine, methionine and even
tryptophan, and consequently improving the protein
quality of cereal grains (Holzapfel, 2002)."

As above fermentation increases the availability of essential amino acids(proteins). Proteinase inhibitors prevent the breakdown of proteins, when you lower these then you make more protein available but you don't make more protein.

Yes ... but how come this is described in this way? you know ... maybe with a cute cartoon to animate it all? maybe talking animals? talking animals can be both non-threatening and persuasive.

I think what is lacking in my understanding of this whole thing is how nutritional analysis is done in general. If the nutrition is in the food, then why isn't it reported in the standard analysis, even if in the format of what's present in one column, and what's available in another?

I had this argument with a biologist once. In a casual conversation I said something about some foods being more nutritious after cooking. He gave me a tongue lashing about "the nutritional content of the food does NOT change by cooking it ..." and I came back with, "but the usefulness of the nutrients of the food surely changes ...?" and he came back with "that's total non-scientific BS," and I came back with "okay, describe to me how well humans deal with cellulose" and he came back with "you've got a point" and quickly changed the subject.

So I ask: If nutrition is in the food all along, then why don't the nutritional charts say so?

I have seen some nutrition charts that do address this ... specifically protein in various protein supplements ... how much is present vs. how much is available.

I've also read more than once about some "unknown factors" of fermentation ...

And then there are the vitamins associated with fermentation ... like B group vitamins ... all pre-present in the grain, or some "grown" in the ferment because they're actually funguses?