FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[ChickenCanoe]

Apparently anyone using a food grade bucket is being "silly" (and possibly lazy) for wasting time/energy/money/concern on that as any bucket will do (if you scrub it enough) & we're all going to die anyway and there are more important things to think about. And, no, it doesn't matter if you got the food-grade bucket for free, or accidentally purchased it without knowing it was "food grade." You're just as silly as anyone who went out and bought a food-grade bucket on purpose.

Of course I might be exaggerating a bit, but that's the gist of it.

I'm really being a brat right now. Someone needs to send me to my room. Stat.

Carcinogenic substances can come from any type of plastic. Food grade is better.
Those that ignore health concerns and scientific studies because, anecdotally, they haven't been harmed yet, do so at their own peril.

That mentality reminds me of how people look at the difference between occupational injury and occupational disease.
If one falls from a ladder or is crushed in a machine and either breaks a bone or is killed, that's occupational injury. It is immediate and obvious.
If one inhales asbestos or MEKs or absorbs PCBs through their skin, there is no immediate harm unless it is severe exposure. Harm might be 20 years down the road but that person is just as dead.
Because the injury isn't immediate, it is normally ignored.
I was an industrial electrician. We often worked in hazardous environments and I always took precautions. I was wiring a motor room in a paint kitchen where the solvent smell would knock you down. I wouldn't work in there until I had the appropriate breathing apparatus. My co-worker was mad at me for wearing it and he couldn't hear me when I spoke so he yelled at me to take it off. I told him to go to h*!l.

 

[perchie.girl]

Quote: Ok I did some digging and I am a digging queen.... LOL couldnt find commercial starter products

Here is an extensive PDF format document on Commercial starter.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ods_of_the_future/file/d912f50977bcfc9f5c.pdf


But my personal opinion is what ever is good for humans will be good for chickens. Some use Kiefer some use Yogurt some use probiotics.... I would like to use water kiefer myself.... because it will be on hand.... I plan to do a bunch of fermenting for myself as well. You can go the really simple rout and use just what exists in the air right now. Not only are you already accustomed to it so are your chickens.

For what its worth no matter how you start out your fermented feed it will equalize with what ever is already in the air around you. Because every time you stir or dip in to the bucket you will be bringing in what ever is floating about in the air. Unless you are fermenting in a sterile environment with autoclaved tools

deb "who really wishes she could have been better help"

 

[perchie.girl]

Quote:

lysine, leucine, isoleucine, methionine and even

tryptophan, and consequently improving the protein
quality of cereal grains (Holzapfel, 2002)."

As above fermentation increases the availability of essential amino acids(proteins). Proteinase inhibitors prevent the breakdown of proteins, when you lower these then you make more protein available but you don't make more protein.

Yes ... but how come this is described in this way? you know ... maybe with a cute cartoon to animate it all? maybe talking animals? talking animals can be both non-threatening and persuasive.

I think what is lacking in my understanding of this whole thing is how nutritional analysis is done in general. If the nutrition is in the food, then why isn't it reported in the standard analysis, even if in the format of what's present in one column, and what's available in another?

I had this argument with a biologist once. In a casual conversation I said something about some foods being more nutritious after cooking. He gave me a tongue lashing about "the nutritional content of the food does NOT change by cooking it ..." and I came back with, "but the usefulness of the nutrients of the food surely changes ...?" and he came back with "that's total non-scientific BS," and I came back with "okay, describe to me how well humans deal with cellulose" and he came back with "you've got a point" and quickly changed the subject.

So I ask: If nutrition is in the food all along, then why don't the nutritional charts say so?

I have seen some nutrition charts that do address this ... specifically protein in various protein supplements ... how much is present vs. how much is available.

I've also read more than once about some "unknown factors" of fermentation ...

And then there are the vitamins associated with fermentation ... like B group vitamins ... all pre-present in the grain, or some "grown" in the ferment because they're actually funguses?
LOL Just look at spinach.... Raw it has no food value..... Cooked but not cooked to death releases all its goodness.

arent Fungi great.... VBG

deb

 

[IAFarmGirl]

Yes ... but how come this is described in this way? you know ... maybe with a cute cartoon to animate it all? maybe talking animals? talking animals can be both non-threatening and persuasive.

I think what is lacking in my understanding of this whole thing is how nutritional analysis is done in general. If the nutrition is in the food, then why isn't it reported in the standard analysis, even if in the format of what's present in one column, and what's available in another?

I had this argument with a biologist once. In a casual conversation I said something about some foods being more nutritious after cooking. He gave me a tongue lashing about "the nutritional content of the food does NOT change by cooking it ..." and I came back with, "but the usefulness of the nutrients of the food surely changes ...?" and he came back with "that's total non-scientific BS," and I came back with "okay, describe to me how well humans deal with cellulose" and he came back with "you've got a point" and quickly changed the subject.

So I ask: If nutrition is in the food all along, then why don't the nutritional charts say so?

I have seen some nutrition charts that do address this ... specifically protein in various protein supplements ... how much is present vs. how much is available.

I've also read more than once about some "unknown factors" of fermentation ...

And then there are the vitamins associated with fermentation ... like B group vitamins ... all pre-present in the grain, or some "grown" in the ferment because they're actually funguses?

From what I read on the link you provided and some others not all protein is water soluble. Fermentation breaks down those tougher proteins and makes them water soluble and also causes the release of starches that those proteins are protecting. I didn't see it specifically written but if the protein wraps itself around the starches maybe it is doing the same thing to some of the other nutrients and the fermentation process allows for the release of those nutrients?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

For what its worth no matter how you start out your fermented feed it will equalize with what ever is already in the air around you. Because every time you stir or dip in to the bucket you will be bringing in what ever is floating about in the air. Unless you are fermenting in a sterile environment with autoclaved tools

One of my much-more-than-I friends said the same thing. "Why bother with a starter if eventually ..."

That said ... I found a few commercial ferment starters ...

http://products.mercola.com/body-ecology/culture-starter.htm

Here is a Canadian version ...

http://www.caldwellbiofermentation.com/caldwell-english/starter-cultures.html

Here is a more International version ...

http://www.organic-cultures.com/

Here is the Home Brewers' Version ...

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients

Here is a little article describing different ways to start fermenting ...

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/co...-culture-ferment-vegetables-fruits-condiments

and another ...

http://www.thenourishinggourmet.com/2009/04/comparison-of-vegetable-fermentation-methods.html

I still have an itch to scratch regarding the two specific starters mentioned in the Nigerian study ...

--------------

All of the above is making me happier and happier with my current air and water fermentation method.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

LOL Just look at spinach.... Raw it has no food value..... Cooked but not cooked to death releases all its goodness.

arent Fungi great.... VBG

deb

Yes! One of my facebook friends ... the guy I was talking fermentation with yesterday ... he is a professional truffle/mushroom hunter. He even uses a dog to hunt truffles. He is pretty much my hero.

 

[Tumbleweed Farm]

Thank you Audio 05--I thought it was probably ok, but got scared and through it away. Was yours a solid film of white--almost like a sheer papery look to it?

 

[Audio51]

Thank you Audio 05--I thought it was probably ok, but got scared and through it away. Was yours a solid film of white--almost like a sheer papery look to it?

Pretty close to that but not quite solid. It did not stink though. In fact, it smell very good...like sourdough...

 

[ChickenCanoe]

IMHO if it doesn't have a bad smell, it's OK.

 

[Tikkijane]

That white stuff on top made me nervous too when I first saw it.  But I came back here and Bee said it was definitely the "good Stuff"  I have been stirring it back in since then.  I never really kept track of how much my girls were eating, but I know I am buying feed less often.  I had been feeding plan old Layena with some occasional scratch before and they have always been let out into the yard to forage.  I always felt like they were a bit on the "Skinny" side though.  Since I started with he FF the all feel much more filled out in the breast then they did before.  They are still allowed to forage most days and still getting the Layena and scratch, but now the scratch is added to the FF.   

I think the whole idea though is to make this simple.  If it starts getting too complicated and requiring special starter, fewer people are going to be willing to try it.  Most people don't add any kind of  starter.  I added only a splash of organic ACV with the Mother when I first started it a few months ago, but only because I already had it on hand.  I have not added anything else and always backslop the new with the old.    They are obviously getting more benefit from it than they were with dry crumbles.  I feed less than I did before and that is also another major benefit....less cost to feed the same number of hens.

I was turned off by multiple buckets and ingredients. Once I read about Bee's cooler method, I knew I could do *that*.

I'm saving at least 2/3s on my feed bill. I need more ventilation, so I still smell ammonia when it's time for clean bedding. Where I've noticed the most effect in that regard is with the guinea poo, which is smelling significantly better.