FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[Audio51]

IMHO if it doesn't have a bad smell, it's OK.

Me too.....

 

[Audio51]

Quote:
I use the double bucket method, but that is about as complicated as it gets for me. I only do that because it guarantees I will have some of the old liquid to inoculate the new.

 

[Tikkijane]

I use the double bucket method, but that is about as complicated as it gets for me.  I only do that because it guarantees I will have some of the old liquid to inoculate the new.

And I'm backslopping, so I always have some, too.

 

[kpgoldstar]

And I'm backslopping, so I always have some, too.

x2

 

[kpgoldstar]

Soooo, first egg Thursday when I got home from work. No egg yesterday (Friday), but we had a double yolker so I was prepared for a skipped day. No egg again today. I was out in the yard most of the afternoon and had the girls out free-ranging the whole time. Snoop and Lemon both went up the ramp a couple times and chatted with the nest boxes and kicked some straw around. I told them they could lay an egg for their Mama, but no luck.

I don't know who laid the first one and now I don't know when I'll get another one!! The waiting begins again...

 

[Beekissed]

I think it is marvelous that Beekissed has brought the idea of fermented feed here ... and when she gets back I'm going to ask her how she thought of it.

There was a thread on here about people getting spent brewers grains from local breweries and they had asked if they were alright for feeding to chickens and seemed to be having a problem using them before they molded, so they were trying to spread them out and dry them and feed them a little bit at a time and all I could think of was, "Wrong move...put them in liquid and let them keep growing the good guys to preserve the good cultures." but I didn't say that at the time.

But my wheels were turning...I knew fermented feed would really create a wonderful bowel culture(because I'm a nurse and a hillbilly....one is well acquainted with bowel health and the other with fermented foods).

I was also thinking, "These folks are getting FREE chicken feed?????? I'm calling the local breweries....." Well, I did and never got an answer, so I thought to myself, "Self, you can make your own, just like they did in the old days....let's see if anyone else is doing that and feeding it to chickens out there."

Did a little research on brewer's grains and how much protein and vitamins were in them and decided I wanted that for my chooks.

I knew they fed it to hogs because that's as old as the hills...everyone does that. But I didn't know about chickens.

Saw some foreign studies done on it, none in the states then....the studies confirmed what I suspected, so I jumped into it. Every hillbilly knows how to ferment corn so that was no learning curve at all. The rest is history.

Apparently anyone using a food grade bucket is being "silly" (and possibly lazy) for wasting time/energy/money/concern on that as any bucket will do (if you scrub it enough) & we're all going to die anyway and there are more important things to think about. And, no, it doesn't matter if you got the food-grade bucket for free, or accidentally purchased it without knowing it was "food grade." You're just as silly as anyone who went out and bought a food-grade bucket on purpose.

Of course I might be exaggerating a bit, but that's the gist of it.

I'm really being a brat right now. Someone needs to send me to my room. Stat.

Go to your room, young lady!

No one said using food grade buckets was silly....I said worrying about it to the degree that it becomes a sticking point to making the FF is silly. We are all dying, inch by inch, and we cannot worry about all the myriad ways and means that we are dying or we will soon forget to live while we still can. Food grade, not food grade, lid, no lid, one bucket, two buckets, under the liquid or not under the liquid....all these issues just cloud up a simple process that shouldn't be creating such doubt and worry.

Bucket+Feed+Water+Time = FF That's all we really need to know at the bottom of the bottom of things.

SO true! It does need to be simple. That's why I like to invest a fair amount of thought into designing a process for something ... so it can be done as simply, automatically and consistently as possible. Especially if I have to designate the task to the minions. This planning phase is nearly always my favorite part of any project. I adore it. Other people ... not so much!

I was discussing the "starter" idea with a fungus genius yesterday. He said he thought the natural fermentation urges of whatever ferment is happening outside of a laboratory would eventually "take over" any "starter" cultures, and you'd end up with "natural" fermentation anyway ... each batch of ferment will be highly location specific. And ... of course ... whatever is brought in on the feed contributes. Even laboratories have to fight nature on this, and my kitchen is far from "laboratory controlled."

That said, the studies indicate a starter can positively influence the cultures in the ferment ... in a laboratory with otherwise "sanitized" ingredients. I need to check that pig slop study again to see if the experiment was conducted in a laboratory or out in the barn. The other study pushed the idea that the two specific starters used were like magic ingredients ... but it was done in a laboratory and the grains were thoroughly cleaned prior to fermentation (and the water sanitized), so there was likely less vigorous natural fermentation happening in the control (natural ferment) batch, thereby making the control batch more or less irrelevant to "real world" applications. Perhaps simply giving a laboratory-grown sanitized control batch more time to ferment would eventually get to the kinds of nutritional bumps that the laboratory batches done with starter were able to achieve within the 3 day window?

But ... even a $20 investment in starter would have a financial impact in my operation, so I'd have to really believe a starter was worth it before I'd buy one. Hence the research.

Exactly. That's what I've been trying to tell folks...don't waste time or money dumping in special cultures or trying to do "lactofermentation" (wha????) by keeping it under water, putting on a lid, or culturing it with yogurt...you just get the same end result we are all getting with slight variations as to the type of lactobacillus and acetobacter.

Yes ... but how come this is described in this way? you know ... maybe with a cute cartoon to animate it all? maybe talking animals? talking animals can be both non-threatening and persuasive.

I think what is lacking in my understanding of this whole thing is how nutritional analysis is done in general. If the nutrition is in the food, then why isn't it reported in the standard analysis, even if in the format of what's present in one column, and what's available in another?

I had this argument with a biologist once. In a casual conversation I said something about some foods being more nutritious after cooking. He gave me a tongue lashing about "the nutritional content of the food does NOT change by cooking it ..." and I came back with, "but the usefulness of the nutrients of the food surely changes ...?" and he came back with "that's total non-scientific BS," and I came back with "okay, describe to me how well humans deal with cellulose" and he came back with "you've got a point" and quickly changed the subject.

So I ask: If nutrition is in the food all along, then why don't the nutritional charts say so?

I have seen some nutrition charts that do address this ... specifically protein in various protein supplements ... how much is present vs. how much is available.

I've also read more than once about some "unknown factors" of fermentation ...

And then there are the vitamins associated with fermentation ... like B group vitamins ... all pre-present in the grain, or some "grown" in the ferment because they're actually funguses?

1. Because different animals process the feeds in different manners and it's all according to how they process the nutrients in the feed as to how it will be absorbed. They cannot tell you how much of the nutrient will be absorbed and, if they even hinted that the nutrition in their feeds may not all be usable to the target animal, how many people do you think would buy their brand of feed?


2. Both..but in greater quantities due to the increased production and also the increase absorption of the ones present in the grain.

 

[Audio51]

Wow! Y'all have been busy! Thanks, LJ, for keeping my thread full of wonderful and applicable data!

Glad you are back, Bee!

 

[kpgoldstar]

Just for the record, I am a chef by trade, long since hung up my tongs for an easier, less stressful life. I have always had many food grade containers to store bulk items. Since I live so far from warehouse stores I buy quantities of beans, pastas, quinoa, rice medleys, flours in bulk whenever I can get to the big city! The minute I started reading about FF, I was convinced that was the way to go. I simply donated one of my food storage containers to my chickens.

I purchased all of mine at Smart and Final, a West Coast mini restaurant supply and bulk food store. They are super high quality and have lids that fit and snap down, probably cost around 7.00?? Doesn't matter since I already had the bucket and it wasn't being used at the time I decided to ferment feed. Same bucket for 4 months, pretty sure it will last well over a year.

 

[perchie.girl]

Just for the record, I am a chef by trade, long since hung up my tongs for an easier, less stressful life. I have always had many food grade containers to store bulk items. Since I live so far from warehouse stores I buy quantities of beans, pastas, quinoa, rice medleys, flours in bulk whenever I can get to the big city! The minute I started reading about FF, I was convinced that was the way to go. I simply donated one of my food storage containers to my chickens.

I purchased all of mine at Smart and Final, a West Coast mini restaurant supply and bulk food store. They are super high quality and have lids that fit and snap down, probably cost around 7.00?? Doesn't matter since I already had the bucket and it wasn't being used at the time I decided to ferment feed. Same bucket for 4 months, pretty sure it will last well over a year.

As long as they are not kept outside they should last virtually for ever....

deb

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

There was a thread on here about people getting spent brewers grains from local breweries and they had asked if they were alright for feeding to chickens and seemed to be having a problem using them before they molded, so they were trying to spread them out and dry them and feed them a little bit at a time and all I could think of was, "Wrong move...put them in liquid and let them keep growing the good guys to preserve the good cultures." but I didn't say that at the time. 

But my wheels were turning...I knew fermented feed would really create a wonderful bowel culture(because I'm a nurse and a hillbilly....one is well acquainted with bowel health and the other with fermented foods).    I was also thinking, "These folks are getting FREE chicken feed??????  I'm calling the local breweries....."   Well, I did and never got an answer, so I thought to myself, "Self, you can make your own, just like they did in the old days....let's see if anyone else is doing that and feeding it to chickens out there."

Did a little research on brewer's grains and how much protein and vitamins were in them and decided I wanted that for my chooks.    

I knew they fed it to hogs because that's as old as the hills...everyone does that.  But I didn't know about chickens.

Saw some foreign studies done on it, none in the states then....the studies confirmed what I suspected, so I jumped into it.  Every hillbilly knows how to ferment corn so that was no learning curve at all.  The rest is history.  



Go to your room, young lady!        No one said using food grade buckets was silly....I said worrying about it to the degree that it becomes a sticking point to making the FF is silly.  We are all dying, inch by inch, and we cannot worry about all the myriad ways and means that we are dying or we will soon forget to live while we still can.  Food grade, not food grade, lid, no lid, one bucket, two buckets, under the liquid or not under the liquid....all these issues just cloud up a simple process that shouldn't be creating such doubt and worry. 

Bucket+Feed+Water+Time = FF      That's all we really need to know at the bottom of the bottom of things. 



Exactly.  That's what I've been trying to tell folks...don't waste time or money dumping in special cultures or trying to do "lactofermentation" (wha????) by keeping it under water, putting on a lid, or culturing it with yogurt...you just get the same end result we are all getting with slight variations as to the type of lactobacillus and acetobacter. 


1.  Because different animals process the feeds in different manners and it's all according to how they process the nutrients in the feed as to how it will be absorbed.  They cannot tell you how much of the nutrient will be absorbed and, if they even hinted that the nutrition in their feeds may not all be usable to the target animal, how many people do you think would buy their brand of feed? 


2.  Both..but in greater quantities due to the increased production and also the increase absorption of the ones present in the grain. 

Such great answers! Thank you so much, in so many ways!

We have a lot of beer brewers here, but he logistics of working with one is a factor ... and then you still need to balance the ration. It does seem "easier" to ferment poultry ration yourself.

I have been wondering I there are any generative chemical reactions happening in the ff. Like how fermentation can produce alcohol out of other stuff ... What other "nutrients" can it create, if any.