FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[Tikkijane]

I suppose you have never heard of a certain Frenchman by the name of Louis Pasteur? He came up with a little procedure known as ?Pasteurization. Pasteurization basically consists of applying various temps of hot water, heat or steam to food items for various times to kill cultures (not colonies) of yeasts, viruses, bacteria, molds, and other pathogens. Carrying this idea that hot water is not a sterilizer to its logical conclusion you should be able to gather up hard boiled Easter eggs this Sunday afternoon, put the colored eggs in an incubator and expect to hatch baby chicks. Please let me know how many you pip.

In the same vane, both semen and fertilized ovum are typically stored in liquid hydrogen at a temperature of about minus 330 degrees to minus 345 degrees Fahrenheit. Another way to view this is to remember that these temperatures are 542 degrees to 557 degrees below the boiling point of water at sea level.

Actually, pasteurization is not boiling, particularly when it comes to milk {which I know we're not talking about- BUT}; and for USDA batch pasteurization, it's 154.4 degrees {F} for 30 minutes. {My husband has been USDA licensed in pasteurization for over 20 years; he's the milk expert around here} You can pasteurize without boiling; depends on what you want to kill.

Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level and decreases as elevation the increases (one of the reasons it's important to know elevation for pressure when canning, for example.) And, the purity of water affects point of boil- how much, I have no idea, just that it does.

E Coli is destroyed at 140 {F}.
Protozoa cysts at 131 {F}

Lactobacillus acidophilus has best growth at 99 degrees {F}; depending on strain, 145 degrees {F} seems to be the more critical tipping point for destruction/.

"Optimum growth temperatures for 9 strains of S. thermophilus and 10 strains of L. bulgaricus ranged from 35 to 42 degrees C for S. thermophilus and 43 to 46 degrees C for L. bulgaricus." {That's 95 t0 104 degrees for us non-mertic folks. } {http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3805441}"

To my thinking, 95- 104 degrees is hot.

115 degrees {F} can kill cultures added to milk, so that's too hot.


Water heaters are supposed to have a maximum setting of 120 degrees {F}, which will certainly scald, but is not actually boiling .Maybe the term "hot" is too subjective, so I've added degree information for those that are inclined to be completely literal.

And wow. That blood moon has the snark out in full force, these days, eh? And here I thought only breeder pages had too much snot......

 

[Tikkijane]

I once killed a nice hen with too much scratch. I just threw a handful of oats and BOSS in a pen with 12 birds a few times a day, not really keeping track. When I opened her up she was loaded with fat, you couldn't even see the gizzard. The rest went on an immediate diet.

If one is adding a lot of grain to the FF then they may be getting into the same situation, especially if free feeding.

I have an EE roo who was a certifiable scratch junkie, until I started with the FF. When it got really cold and the scratch came out, the first few times he went hog wild. The last time it got down below sustained freezing temps and was wet {freezing rain can coat chickens, too!}, he checked it out, but then went back to eating the FF. I'd say that's a win in my book! {and one set of babies has seen the scratch a few times, but won't touch it. Mice = ok; scratch= not so much. Heh.}

 

[Beekissed]

Actually, pasteurization is not boiling, particularly when it comes to milk {which I know we're not talking about- BUT}; and for USDA batch pasteurization, it's 154.4 degrees {F} for 30 minutes. {My husband has been USDA licensed in pasteurization for over 20 years; he's the milk expert around here} You can pasteurize without boiling; depends on what you want to kill.

Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level and decreases as elevation the increases (one of the reasons it's important to know elevation for pressure when canning, for example.) And, the purity of water affects point of boil- how much, I have no idea, just that it does.

E Coli is destroyed at 140 {F}.
Protozoa cysts at 131 {F}

Lactobacillus acidophilus has best growth at 99 degrees {F}; depending on strain, 145 degrees {F} seems to be the more critical tipping point for destruction/.

"Optimum growth temperatures for 9 strains of S. thermophilus and 10 strains of L. bulgaricus ranged from 35 to 42 degrees C for S. thermophilus and 43 to 46 degrees C for L. bulgaricus." {That's 95 t0 104 degrees for us non-mertic folks. } {http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3805441}"

To my thinking, 95- 104 degrees is hot.

115 degrees {F} can kill cultures added to milk, so that's too hot.


Water heaters are supposed to have a maximum setting of 120 degrees {F}, which will certainly scald, but is not actually boiling .Maybe the term "hot" is too subjective, so I've added degree information for those that are inclined to be completely literal.

And wow. That blood moon has the snark out in full force, these days, eh? And here I thought only breeder pages had too much snot......

No worries...this is a fella that likes to stalk the FF threads, trash the method and spread disinformation about it all. Just ignore. You are just fine on the information you provide to this thread!

 

[Tikkijane]

Very unnecessary. If a person wants to provide warm water if they are trying to ferment in the winter, this might hasten ferment but you can kill bread yeast by using too hot tap water and the wild yeasts we are collecting for the ferment won't even be able to establish until that hot water cools.....so what's the point?


Now, I just had this discussion on another thread and those folks just swore up and down you can't overfeed a chicken and that free choice feeding is better for them.

It's a nice way of justifying dumping feed into a big container and not having to think about it again for a week or so before you have to refill it.

ANY creature can overeat and die from the side effects of that overeating, why in the world would chickens be exclusively excluded from that fact, I wonder?

People only have to fill containers once a week?! Shooo weee!

One thing I have seen a lot of that makes me scratch my head is the inclination to diddle. Tweaking is one thing, and I think there is a learning curve, particularly with relation to water/feed ratio and figuring out how thick {or not} you like your feed. It's the diddling and complicating I don't understand. I see folks who have 10 + ingredients in their recipes, and some of those are folks who aren't going to the mill and making their own feed. I've seen people who cook a wide variety of foods for their chickens {to give them variety; or because they wouldn't want to eat the same things every day, so why should the chickens?, etc.}

I mean, I'm not knocking it- if it floats your boat, go for it. I think it's great. But somehow, it invariably seems to get passed on to others as "necessary," which is isn't, and then all these steps and things that "must" be done can be a huge turn-off for folks. It reminds me of the couple I met in TSC the other day, who were on the verge of deciding against getting chickens, because they kept hearing about all the stuff that "had" to be done- flock blocks, meal worms, electrolytes in water, etc etc etc. She let me know yesterday that they did get 6 chicks, and have fallen in love. I didn't say more about FF except in passing, because I knew that might tip her over the edge, lololol.

 

[Tikkijane]

No worries...this is a fella that likes to stalk the FF threads, trash the method and spread disinformation about it all. Just ignore. You are just fine on the information you provide to this thread!

I was having flashbacks of the feller who not only washed his hatching eggs with bleach and swore by it, but who was arguing with me about the bloom/cuticle. He actually said it was rooster juice.

Oh my stars. I am still laughing about that one. Bless his heart, he stuck to his guns, even after I quoted and gave him the links that showed the sciency folks had studied it and determined it was protein. Boy juice.......

 

[Beekissed]

People only have to fill containers once a week?! Shooo weee!

One thing I have seen a lot of that makes me scratch my head is the inclination to diddle. Tweaking is one thing, and I think there is a learning curve, particularly with relation to water/feed ratio and figuring out how thick {or not} you like your feed. It's the diddling and complicating I don't understand. I see folks who have 10 + ingredients in their recipes, and some of those are folks who aren't going to the mill and making their own feed. I've seen people who cook a wide variety of foods for their chickens {to give them variety; or because they wouldn't want to eat the same things every day, so why should the chickens?, etc.}

I mean, I'm not knocking it- if it floats your boat, go for it. I think it's great. But somehow, it invariably seems to get passed on to others as "necessary," which is isn't, and then all these steps and things that "must" be done can be a huge turn-off for folks. It reminds me of the couple I met in TSC the other day, who were on the verge of deciding against getting chickens, because they kept hearing about all the stuff that "had" to be done- flock blocks, meal worms, electrolytes in water, etc etc etc. She let me know yesterday that they did get 6 chicks, and have fallen in love. I didn't say more about FF except in passing, because I knew that might tip her over the edge, lololol.

Exactly!!! Couldn't have said it better myself! All these little complicated routines, treats, feed mixes, bugs, worms, vitamin waters, etc. drive me insane and they DO get passed on as fact. It's like when kids at camp sat in a circle and whispered something in someone's ear and by the time it came around the full circle it was entirely inaccurate to the truth.

Same with this FF....with the water over the feed, lid on tight, glass or ceramic containers because the buckets may leach, adding fresh feed every day or each time you feed, adding ACV each time you refresh, strainers, bumbeezles, flamboozles and a ting tang doozle...pretty soon I feel like it all started in Hooville

..... LAB fermentation starters...when it's all going to be LAB fermentation in the end anyway, cheesecloth over the bucket when a lid popped down on one side is sufficient, stirring X number of times a day or it won't stay healthy, etc.


It grates on my everliving, loving nerves when folks complicate things unnecessarily.....all you have to do is watch the government in action if you really want to see that hot mess in action. It's fine if folks want to feel like they are working harder and spending more on their chickens than the next person, but there's no need to tout such things all over the net as something recommended for keeping chickens healthier or "happier".

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Exactly!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!  All these little complicated routines, treats, feed mixes, bugs, worms, vitamin waters, etc. drive me insane and they DO get passed on as fact.  It's like when kids at camp sat in a circle and whispered something in someone's ear and by the time it came around the full circle it was entirely inaccurate to the truth. 

Same with this FF....with the water over the feed, lid on tight,  glass or ceramic containers because the buckets may leach,  adding fresh feed every day or each time you feed, adding ACV each time you refresh, strainers, bumbeezles, flamboozles and a ting tang doozle...pretty soon I feel like it all started in Hooville  ..... LAB fermentation starters...when it's all going to be LAB fermentation in the end anyway, cheesecloth over the bucket when a lid popped down on one side is sufficient, stirring X number of times a day or it won't stay healthy, etc. 


It grates on my everliving, loving nerves when folks complicate things unnecessarily.....all you have to do is watch the government in action if you really want to see that hot mess in action.  It's fine if folks want to feel like they are working harder and spending more on their chickens than the next person, but there's no need to tout such things all over the net as something recommended for keeping chickens healthier or "happier". 

If applied sensibly, any number of the "extras" can be used in any specific situation to make things go more smoothly or be easier or produce better results ... if things aren't going smoothly, etc. It's nice to have access to other people's tips and tricks ... as long as it doesn't obscure the basics.

The Basics: feed + water + time.

We say that and then people find trouble with the containers ...

But start out too complicated and you might have trouble figuring out which direction to tweak in to make the process better for yourself & the birds.

 

[subhanalah]

Very unnecessary.  If a person wants to provide warm water if they are trying to ferment in the winter, this might hasten ferment but you can kill bread yeast by using too hot tap water and the wild yeasts we are collecting for the ferment won't even be able to establish until that hot water cools.....so what's the point? 


Now, I just had this discussion on another thread and those folks just swore up and down you can't overfeed a chicken and that free choice feeding is better for them.    It's a nice way of justifying dumping feed into a big container and not having to think about it again for a week or so before you have to refill it. 

ANY creature can overeat and die from the side effects of that overeating, why in the world would chickens be exclusively excluded from that fact, I wonder?   

it's been suggested that boiling for any period of time does not kill yeast.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Related, and inspiring: I listened to a show in NPR the other day about how important the bio-whatsits are to human health ... Lactobacillus etc. all those things that live in and on our body symbiotically to keep us functioning. About how even something as random as a cecessarian birth possibly denies an infant exposure to what should be the first natural batch of "healthy" bacterias he/she needs to get started with a healthy system, and what can be done about it. Fascinating!

Makes me even more pleased we can do FF for our chickens.

 

[pdirt]

I changed it to hot water- have read numerous places to use for initial ferment. They would kill on secondary ferment, but on initial, if you're just starting with feed and water, you don't have any cultures to kill yet, afaik.

Water up to 120F or even 130F (very hot water) would be okay. The cultures come from primarily three sources: 1) yeasts in the air, 2) yeasts on the grains themselves and 3) lactic acid bacteria (LABs) on the grains themselves. If you kill the yeasts on the grains, they will get replaced by the ones from the air. But if you kill the LABs on the grains by using boiling water (or bleach, iodine, etc) then they will not get replaced unless you supplement with a starter. There's a small chance that a few of the hardier LABs could survive the boiling water, but it would slow down the fermentation process. This all applies mostly to starting a new batch, a backslopped established ferment is already full of viable cultures.

As for local/wild cultures "taking over" anything you might add in the form of a starter, this best holds true if you do an open-air container and stir regularly. If you keep a closed container and don't stir (like I do, using molasses and EM) then you are culturing both the already-present wild yeasts and bacteria as well as the ones added from the EM (effective microorganisms). You could also do a closed container (burping it daily to release gasses) WITHOUT a starter like EM and there's a pretty good chance that you will also end up with a very nice ferment. The reason for stirring is to mix in some air and yeasts from the air. The yeasts are the ones primarily responsible for the bubbles and gasses. With fewer yeasts added (added if you stir), the ferment will be much slower, but it will likely still ferment. There's a greater chance in that case of the ferment going wrong and the pH will rise, indicating the presence of harmful bacteria. In such a case (closed container, no stirring, no starter), then adding a small amount of acid (such as ANY KIND of vinegar) will help lower the pH so that the acid-loving LABs can "win" over the alkaline-loving harmful bacteria. Once the LABs gain the stronghold, they will eradicate most if not all of the harmful bacteria, like e. coli, c. botulinum (botulism), etc. Once the pH is low enough, the worries are over.

I know that's way more than you probably wanted to hear (and you probably already know it!) but it's the sort of thing I've found really helpful in understanding the art of fermentation. Once you know the basics, you can be freer to get creative and worry less.