FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[EggSighted4Life]

Had my lid airtight.....That's what I did wrong then. They love FF and I've watched it bubble and brew and smell like beer, but today, the white film had some sort of fur growing. I stir it up daily when I add or take any. Today, I scraped the skim off the top & fed the rest to them. They were in heaven!

But the white stuff isn't a problem or mold. Just mix it in, that is yeast growing. Had it come on one of my batches and thought the same thing.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hello!

I have a few questions and I'm sorry if these have already been answered but this thread is very long!

I haven't started with fermented feed but I am intrigued for sure!

My questions are centered around the batch of 2.5 week old chicks I have brooding indoors in the garage. I let them out every other day in the pen outside to get some fresh scenery.

Question 1: I currently have the chicks on 18% medicated feed. I have always fed the bird medicated as chicks but I am wondering if it is really necessary as I brood them indoors. Leading from that I was wondering if I can ferment medicated chick feed? Would the fermentation process dilute the amprolium and weaken its effectiveness?

Question 2: I was reading fermenting increases the digestible protein by 12%. So that means if I am using 18% feed, fermenting brings it up to 20.16%. Is that the right math?


Question 3: Do chickens require less feed when it's fermented because it becomes more efficient for them to digest and absorb nutrients or does it have some to do because its creates a fuller feeling because of its increased volume with water.

Thanks guys!

@lazy gardener has it right.

18% seems like a low protein level to me for growing chicks, fermented or not.

I use non medicated starter, but have had to treat for cocci as I live in the PNW. It is very wet in the spring and I think it's in my ground from the previous owner as I never had issues until exactly 6 days after going on pasture. However as the seasons gone by, haven't had to treat this time of year. Also I learned about adding soil from the yard to increase the chicks immunity before throwing them out there. Some of mine have been on pasture since 3 days old.

I don't believe it's the water that reduces feed amount, because they would have drank that much water anyways from another source. Now they just need less water from the water bowl. So, pretty sure is the increased nutrient absorption.

I have heard others do ferment medicated feed. For me when I HAD to treat with Corid (name brand amprollium) I did have to do math to get the right ratio fro treatment to make up for the extra water they don't drink because it's already in the feed. My calculation for the water ended up being a double dose and worked well. When I tried regular dosing I didn't see results. So I hashed it out with a few others and used deductive reasoning. Using deductive reasoning for yours, I would say you shouldn't have to change because I think they consume the same total amount of water... but then on the other hand they may not consume the same amount of feed.

If you aren't having symptoms, don't worry about it. The reason the stores always try to sell us medicated is because the hatchery conditions are so bad they loose birds left and right. So for them it's more like insurance. I also wonder if the medicated feed is robbing certain nutrients for all of the chicks growing, how does that effect the chick? For that reason I would skip it and only treat if needed. Although an ounce of prevention may be worth a pound of cure.... Why try to prevent something you may not have? I weigh pro's and cons and choose the lesser of the evils and the one that is right for me and my situation. I adjust seasonally.

I completely agree again with Lazy Gardener that all animals and soil have some parasite load and that is ok. It is a problem when they are too prolific. Then you must take action. And also I think cocci is a huge possibility more so indoors depending on what size your brood and brooder are.

I am sure you will come up with the solution that fits you best. And welcome to wide world of fermenting!

It took my chicks a few days to adjust to seeing something new. So don't give up if they don't dig in right away.

Good luck!

 

[bullets]

@lazy gardener
@EggSighted4Life

Thanks you guys very much! You're very helpful and gave me pretty thorough answers. I will give it a try using my medicated feed. I plan to take them off the medicated once they are out full time for 2 weeks. On the next batch I may not even use medicated and see how it goes. I'll be sure to keep some Corrid on hand to use as needed.

One more newbie question: I see some people use ACV in their fermented feed batch and some only water. I recall reading an article that said using only water creates LAB fermentation and Acv added promotes another kind of bacteria, can't remember what it said. Did I understand that correctly or am I completely wrong? What method do you guys use?

Thanks again!

 

[Molpet]

@lazy gardener
@EggSighted4Life

Thanks you guys very much! You're very helpful and gave me pretty thorough answers. I will give it a try using my medicated feed. I plan to take them off the medicated once they are out full time for 2 weeks. On the next batch I may not even use medicated and see how it goes. I'll be sure to keep some Corrid on hand to use as needed.

One more newbie question: I see some people use ACV in their fermented feed batch and some only water. I recall reading an article that said using only water creates LAB fermentation and Acv added promotes another kind of bacteria, can't remember what it said. Did I understand that correctly or am I completely wrong? What method do you guys use?

Thanks again!

a byc member made this FAQ https://tikktok.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/fermented-feed-faq/

 

[Tikkijane]

Fermenting and Amprolium:  I have no idea how fermenting affects Amprolium.  You can ferment medicated feed.  There are 2 schools of thought on Amprolium:  Cocci is everywhere, in all soils, and a natural flora in a chicken's gut.  Amprolium is a Thiamine blocker.  Thiamine is required for the cocci to reproduce.  So, the medicated feed campers, figure that the medicated feed will limit the load of cocci in the gut to give the chick time to build a healthy flora to outnumber any cocci.  Common mistake is taking them off medicated when they move out into wet soil conditions.   Then there is the other camp, of which I am a strong proponent:  Cocci is natural.  Chicks have the highest natural immunity in the first 2 weeks after hatch.  During that time, I want to expose MY chicks to the specific cocci strains that are in MY soil.  At the same time, I do everything in my power to boost their immunity:  give them a plug of soil/sod from my yard that will give them a good dose of bacteria and fungi to jump start their gut flora.  Give them fermented feed, again, to do the same.  Lots of probiotics in FF, and they do absorb more nutrient, and their gut villi grow longer, allowing them to absorb nutrient from all sources with more ease.  Also, by keeping your flock off bare fecal loaded impacted soil that is often seen in many closed chicken runs, you will decrease ALL pathogen exposure.  (deep litter here, as soon as the soil becomes visible in the run)  My chicks have NEVER had medicated feed.  I've never had issues with cocci.  I can't imagine ever needing to give medicated feed.  Last spring, I had a poor hatch of shipped eggs that was compounded with some incubation problems.  Those chicks were not as thrifty.  But, just as soon as I got them on 100% FF, they perked up, and their stools improved greatly.  

FF protein math:  You can research some studies.  Or you can simply try it and enjoy the benefit.  My chicks have always laid at least 2 weeks earlier than the chicks of my friends.  (Same breed, same source, same age, same feed store options.  In multiple instances the chicks of my friends have come from MY incubator!))  Only difference is FF.

They will eat less feed because they absorb more nutrient from the feed that they do eat.

It's all in the FAQ. Fermenting dilutes the amprolium. No harm, but no benefit. Fermenting helps keep the cocci in check.

 

[Tikkijane]

But the white stuff isn't a problem or mold. Just mix it in, that is yeast growing. Had it come on one of my batches and thought the same thing.

Right. That's the GOOD STUFF. Likely wss the yeasts /SCOBY.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

@bullets I just use water.

I know with water, the fermentation changes according to what bacteria you have floating around in your air is my understanding. I don't use acv because I don't think it's needed and it's an added expense for me. I have acv on hand and tried it in the water, but my well water grows weird stuff within a day if I do it. Also, I have tried different feeds and the smell is different between them when fermented.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Right. That's the GOOD STUFF. Likely wss the yeasts /SCOBY.

Since you seem to be a great source of information..... Can you tell me....

Does fermenting actually increase protein by 12%..... OR does it increase ABSORPTION by 12% ?

It doesn't have much bearing since I love fermenting. But it will increase my understanding of the mechanics of it. Especially since I sometimes use game bird feed at 28%protein, I don't want to be feeding 40%. I usually mix the two to come up around 24%, but if you add 12 to that it's still 36. So if I have an understanding if it's absorption or actual increase will help me to make better decisions regarding feeding my flock.

I can see you are VERY busy raising kids and pursuing the good life, so thanks for your time!

 

[bullets]

Since you seem to be a great source of information..... Can you tell me....

Does fermenting actually increase protein by 12%..... OR does it increase ABSORPTION by 12% ?

It doesn't have much bearing since I love fermenting. But it will increase my understanding of the mechanics of it. Especially since I sometimes use game bird feed at 28%protein, I don't want to be feeding 40%. I usually mix the two to come up around 24%, but if you add 12 to that it's still 36. So if I have an understanding if it's absorption or actual increase will help me to make better decisions regarding feeding my flock.

I can see you are VERY busy raising kids and pursuing the good life, so thanks for your time!

I'll wait for @EggSighted4Life to respond as well but my understanding is your aren't simply adding 12% to your protein count. Not 28% + 12% = 40% I believe it's more like this, 28% × 1.12 = 31.36% if that makes sense. Now whether the protein boost if from increased absorption or ff actually physically ups the protein I don't know, but I'm more inclined to believe it's absorption related as that's what everything that I'm reading about talks about (but not specifically about protein).

 

[EggSighted4Life]

@bullets I think I see what you are saying. That it increases the 28% times 0.12. That seems to make more sense than what I've had going on in my head.

Now for some more and new calculations! That really does help. Thank you!

Math is my thing. I love numbers as they are very black and white. Or in other words, #s don't lie (if you got them right). I like that when you have a problem if you follow a specified formula, you get the answer. Oddly for me there is not much area for grey. Mistakes happen and are OK, but no deception please (for my life in general). Sorry, I like to use analogies and they may not always make sense.

Doing chickens, goats, and dogs gives me lots of things to focus on that are productive energy instead of dwelling on the shoulda, coulda, woulda's in life. Now I've got lots of #'s to think about.