FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[Ebarnes-21]

Ha I just found the bit on covering or not covering with water on your webpage ... awesome, I didn't like the idea of adding more water ... seemed a bit yuck ... it looks (and smells) good like it is to me.

Even the cats like it ... The Brat is opening my bucket and pigging out overnight ... really why is a CAT eating corn and wheat?? Is it that good? Should I try it too Lol.

I need a brick on top of it now to stop her highness from eating all the chicken feed.

I'm now gradually increasing the amount in my bucket ... as I'm following the "take some out, add some in" easy one-bucket method, logically I need the total volume in my bucket to be about a week's worth of feed if I'm to have it nicely fermented overall.

 

[Ebarnes-21]

Ok EggSighted, I have a new source of confusion Lol.

I just read down in the comments on that blog page you link to that it is actually better to make a bigger batch, use almost all of it, and then refill right up again.

It seems strange ... I had thought that a regular take out/replace system would have been best as it keeps it consistent?

So yeah, some will always be newish, but some will be quite old too, and the average age of ferment in there will remain stable. Also, generally cultures like to be fed little and often, and used and replaced every day. Sourdough for instance ... even cultures like Kombucha, ginger beer, and wine that only get used at the end of a process like to be fed little by little each day when they are actively growing.

So my question is, why?? Why is it better to use up most of it and refill it all at once?

I get that overnight is adequate to give them the fermentation boost, but surely not as well done as say the second day, and then at the end of the week all the feed is getting pretty ripe. It must be a big difference in flavour and probably nutrition from monday to sunday shall we say.

It just seems counter-intuitive to me.

Yes, I'm one of those people that always asked Why in school Lol ... a constant source of frustration to teachers I'm sure!

I just need to understand the reasons ... what, precisely, happens that is not as good if it is used and replaced every day?

 

[orchardflock]

I was thinking the same thing, which is why I originally tried just taking and replacing for the first week. Except then I ended up with very obviously fuzzy grey mold growing on the sides and lids of the bucket. So now I'm thinking that it might be better to just start new smaller batches every two days or so and make sure no one batch ever lasts more than 4 or 5 days. I'm also going to be extra careful to keep the sides and lid clean.

As a biology teacher, I approve of your questions Ebarnes-21!

 

[Finnie]

I am not ready to make a bigger batch yet till I get amounts right. Wouldn't want to have to throw out Organic FF because it got TOO FF'd

You don't throw it out if it ferments too long. You just dilute it with new feed and water and continue on.

Even the cats like it ... The Brat is opening my bucket and pigging out overnight ... really why is a CAT eating corn and wheat?? Is it that good? Should I try it too Lol.

I doubt it is your cat doing this. Cats are obligate carnivores, and would not be interested in eating fermented grain.

need a brick on top of it now to stop her highness from eating all the chicken feed.

A brick is a great idea! But if it's a raccoon getting it, then a brick is not enough.

The whole thing doesn't need to be as complicated as some of you are making it. When you start a batch, let it ferment a few days before you begin feeding it out. Then each morning serve out what you will, and add new feed and water to what's left. That part that's left is called the backslop. Stir it good and forget about it till the next morning. The cultures in the backslop will be adequate to ferment the whole thing by the next day. You never finish it all up, you never start all over new. It just keeps going perpetually.

Good luck, and have fun stirring!

 

[orchardflock]

And you've never had problems with mold or the chickens refusing to eat it with this method? I believe you, I'm just wondering where I went wrong. And how your are keeping out mold. Although I suppose the problem could be just that I live in a very wet, mold-prone climate.

 

[Ebarnes-21]

I doubt it is your cat doing this. Cats are obligate carnivores, and would not be interested in eating fermented grain.


A brick is a great idea! But if it's a raccoon getting it, then a brick is not enough.

The whole thing doesn't need to be as complicated as some of you are making it. When you start a batch, let it ferment a few days before you begin feeding it out. Then each morning serve out what you will, and add new feed and water to what's left. That part that's left is called the backslop. Stir it good and forget about it till the next morning. The cultures in the backslop will be adequate to ferment the whole thing by the next day. You never finish it all up, you never start all over new. It just keeps going perpetually.

Good luck, and have fun stirring!

Please, tell The Brat that! Its definitely her I'm afraid, I've caught her in the bucket eating. Guilty looks and licking grain off her chops!

Also I put the scoop down in the house on my way to feed the chooks, just to grab the pot of scraps, and when I turn around there she is she's pulled a big mouthful out of the scoop and has it on my kitchen floor chowing it down.

Not really getting why myself, I know, cats are the straightest carnivores on the planet, but she's weird.

She likes bread too, particularly crusts from buttered toast and fair enough its butter, but she'll make off with a whole loaf if I leave it out with the door open.

But she's never, ever shown interest in grains before, that's quite bizarre.

Also there are no racoons in my country ... there are possum, australian possum that is, a bit different from american possum ... bigger and fluffier ... body weight wise they could maybe knock off a brick, but I've never had one do it for any other feed, I don't expect that to be an issue.

 

[tigger19687]

I had a cat that ate Cantalope, go figure, and another that loved to Lick my Bif Daddy caramel stick.

 

[lazy gardener]

Its OK I'm not feeding 'ONLY' corn and wheat ... thats just the bought grain side which I'm fermenting ... for the protein and other nutrients I give them cooked, minced meat scraps/offal from my home grown sheep. Liver/lung etc ... that is over 40% protein.

I just don't think meat would be great fermented!

I also give them some root crops as extra to pick at, like giant radish, turnip, fodder beets, but not until after they've had all their real feed. The nutritional profile of the roots (by dry matter) is similar to corn, but they're mostly water still, so I don't overdo those. I might try fermenting them too though!

My mix once fed is:
2 parts wheat
1 part corn
1 part offal meats

(all by volume, as the meat isn't dry, obviously weight wouldn't be appropriate)

Total protein works out at 19%.

Then I also give my kitchen scraps (including crushed shell), and a few chunked roots to pick at afterwards.

Do you think that's OK? Constructive criticism always welcome!

My breed is Buff Sussex, heavy breed.

I've noticed that they seem to prefer the ration with meats than the commercial mix, they eat a little less overall and are better satisfied with that ... often the response to the evening feed is "good grief you want us to eat MORE???"

I fed half/half dry grain and fermented grain this morning ... decided they love it ... so far so good. Smells nice to me. Its probably only half done though from the sound of it, whole grain and its winter ... temperature is about 12C out there.

Read a page on lacto-fermenting that said the feed should be covered with water, to actually stop the air getting at it ... everyone I've seen seems to be keeping it quite dryish and stirring to keep it aerated ... ?? I know any fermentation is good, but which is best?

Forgive us silly Americans! We seem to think that the only way to do something is our way! Your feed mix with real animal protein in it sounds wonderful. That we all could be so blessed to be able to feed real meat to our flocks on a regular basis. And, you are right, just ferment the grains, give them the meat unfermented! As for your winter temp, from where I come from, that temp in the winter is a heat wave. I'd be wearing shorts and a short sleeved shirt, looking for my sandals. Our temp here often gets down to 20 below 0* F. (-29*C) As for the old way of fermenting by keeping a layer of water over the ferment, and then straining it... we found that it simply was not necessary. Regarding which is better... I have no science, but simply do what works. Does Tikki Jane's article address that question????

Ok EggSighted, I have a new source of confusion Lol.

I just read down in the comments on that blog page you link to that it is actually better to make a bigger batch, use almost all of it, and then refill right up again.

It seems strange ... I had thought that a regular take out/replace system would have been best as it keeps it consistent?

So yeah, some will always be newish, but some will be quite old too, and the average age of ferment in there will remain stable. Also, generally cultures like to be fed little and often, and used and replaced every day. Sourdough for instance ... even cultures like Kombucha, ginger beer, and wine that only get used at the end of a process like to be fed little by little each day when they are actively growing.

So my question is, why?? Why is it better to use up most of it and refill it all at once?

I get that overnight is adequate to give them the fermentation boost, but surely not as well done as say the second day, and then at the end of the week all the feed is getting pretty ripe. It must be a big difference in flavour and probably nutrition from monday to sunday shall we say.

It just seems counter-intuitive to me.

Yes, I'm one of those people that always asked Why in school Lol ... a constant source of frustration to teachers I'm sure!

I just need to understand the reasons ... what, precisely, happens that is not as good if it is used and replaced every day?

You are using whole grains, so your grains will not break down as quickly as my processed chicken feed. You may find that feeding a little bit to your bucket every day works well for you. Me, I'm happy to feed out the bucket, and re-start the culture with about a cup full of ferment left in the bottom of a 5 gal bucket. by the next morning, the bucket is perking along quite nicely. My ferment gets quite ripe if it sits for 3 days. I guess, the bottom line for me is this: fermenting is not rocket science. Just like there are many ways to make chicken soup, there are also many ways to ferment chicken feed. Some folks do keep their ferment covered with water, and then they have to strain the feed out of the water. That doesn't work well at all when you are working with processed feed. If I had to do that, I can guarantee that I'd be giving my chooks dry feed and not fermenting at all. I like to give them the nutritional benefit, but I draw the line at mucking around with a strainer!!!

I was one of those students that sat in the front row and drove my professors absolutely batty. Not only did I ask her questions, all. the. time. But, I challenged her when something that she said on Tuesday contradicted something that she said last Friday.

 

[Ebarnes-21]

Forgive us silly Americans! We seem to think that the only way to do something is our way! Your feed mix with real animal protein in it sounds wonderful. That we all could be so blessed to be able to feed real meat to our flocks on a regular basis. And, you are right, just ferment the grains, give them the meat unfermented! As for your winter temp, from where I come from, that temp in the winter is a heat wave. I'd be wearing shorts and a short sleeved shirt, looking for my sandals. Our temp here often gets down to 20 below 0* F. (-29*C) As for the old way of fermenting by keeping a layer of water over the ferment, and then straining it... we found that it simply was not necessary. Regarding which is better... I have no science, but simply do what works. Does Tikki Jane's article address that question????



You are using whole grains, so your grains will not break down as quickly as my processed chicken feed. You may find that feeding a little bit to your bucket every day works well for you. Me, I'm happy to feed out the bucket, and re-start the culture with about a cup full of ferment left in the bottom of a 5 gal bucket. by the next morning, the bucket is perking along quite nicely. My ferment gets quite ripe if it sits for 3 days. I guess, the bottom line for me is this: fermenting is not rocket science. Just like there are many ways to make chicken soup, there are also many ways to ferment chicken feed. Some folks do keep their ferment covered with water, and then they have to strain the feed out of the water. That doesn't work well at all when you are working with processed feed. If I had to do that, I can guarantee that I'd be giving my chooks dry feed and not fermenting at all. I like to give them the nutritional benefit, but I draw the line at mucking around with a strainer!!!

I was one of those students that sat in the front row and drove my professors absolutely batty. Not only did I ask her questions, all. the. time. But, I challenged her when something that she said on Tuesday contradicted something that she said last Friday.

I'm always happy to get constructive criticism on my feeding practice ... it's hard to say with homemade rations whether you have all bases really covered or not ... I try to know everything humanly possible on the subject but I'm nowhere near it yet!

I'm pretty happy with my meat containing ration so far, I'd like to do (am working on) a decent nutritional analysis of what it should have in it, based on the ingredients. I'll have to find info for the nutritional analysis of fermented grains now. I'd love to see an in-depth comparison!

Oh it occasionally drops to right on 0C here, just briefly overnight, enough to freeze the dew on the grass ... which makes all us farmers complain something terrible because the grass doesn't grow as fast anymore!! Happens about 5 times a year, but only on fine nights with no cloud cover, and then the day is right back up to 20C. Most of the time a winter night is 8C, and day is about 16. Its a good 20 out today ... but here I am in a puffer jacket and double layers of socks.

It was freezing last night .. must have been down to about 2C, yuck, I had to get up in that and turn the Emu eggs!! Probably sounds like paradise right? I'll tell that to my toes when I turn the eggs tonight, maybe they'll stop complaining!

Tikki Jane's article said it wasn't necessary too ... slightly puzzled as the usual advice for human food fermentation is anaerobic, ie submerged, so it doesn't produce alcohol, but the advice for wine is block off air so it doesn't produce acids!

So far the "Just enough water" and stir daily with whole grains produces a pleasant seeming product to me. Happy with that so far. Even with whole grains I wouldn't want the hassle of straining, but it would be do-able.

Good point on the whole grains maybe different in regards to topping up daily. I think they've got to be less inclined to growing mould at least. I'll keep doing my daily change unless I have any issues in which case I'll try other ways.

Oh no ...aren't you supposed to just be confused when teachers contradict themselves? Terrible thing pointing it out ...

 

[Finnie]

And you've never had problems with mold or the chickens refusing to eat it with this method? I believe you, I'm just wondering where I went wrong. And how your are keeping out mold. Although I suppose the problem could be just that I live in a very wet, mold-prone climate.

Hm, maybe it's the difference in climate. If things are very mold-prone there, then that could explain mold growing on yours and not on mine.

Please, tell The Brat that! Its definitely her I'm afraid, I've caught her in the bucket eating. Guilty looks and licking grain off her chops!

Also I put the scoop down in the house on my way to feed the chooks, just to grab the pot of scraps, and when I turn around there she is she's pulled a big mouthful out of the scoop and has it on my kitchen floor chowing it down.

Not really getting why myself, I know, cats are the straightest carnivores on the planet, but she's weird.

She likes bread too, particularly crusts from buttered toast and fair enough its butter, but she'll make off with a whole loaf if I leave it out with the door open.

But she's never, ever shown interest in grains before, that's quite bizarre.

Also there are no racoons in my country ... there are possum, australian possum that is, a bit different from american possum ... bigger and fluffier ... body weight wise they could maybe knock off a brick, but I've never had one do it for any other feed, I don't expect that to be an issue.

Ha ha! Well ok, I guess there are always exceptions to things and your kitty must have to be the different one! I didn't realize you were in Australia, either, so the raccoon idea would be out. Besides that, it sounds like you are fermenting inside the house, so my idea of outside animals getting it was way off.