Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[mstricer]

Okay I've been FF for about 3 weeks now, and i have to say those of you that say it isnt time consuming, ARE DEAD WRONG. First, I want to do it but it is extremely time conauming for me. One I can't get the water thing down. I only let it ferment for about 12 hours at a time. There is the the sifting of of the water out of the feed, X 2 because I have chicks. This is done two times a day. I don't get to stir as much as it takes. I have to get up at 4:30am just to start my feeding before work, then i come home and have to do it again. So for those of you that are doing this and working fulltime, please tell me your secret. I have 1 layer coop to feed and 5 breeding coops and a room of chicks. HELP

 

[yinepu]

Quote:

high-production layer flocks or young overweight maturing hens. Layers with a history of some

other pecking problem can also start vent pecking. The target area includes the vent or the
region of the abdomen several inches below the vent. A prolapsed oviduct and tearing of the
tissues by the passage of an abnormally large egg are two predisposing factors. Vent pecking
can result in anemia due to blood loss. A prolapsed oviduct is usually permanent and results in
other birds pecking until the affected bird bleeds to death. Affected birds need to be culled from
the flock."

Beak Trimming
Beak trimming is a routine husbandry procedure in the commercial poultry industry, particularly
in breeding and laying hens.

and from another link:
The pulling out of
feathers of another bird is commonly observed in flocks
kept in close confinement, whereas the pecking of the
vent region is often observed in high-production pullet
flocks that are kept in cages (Riddell, 1991). Vent-pecking
has also been observed in loose housing systems (Gunnarson
et al., 1995). In either case, cannibalism often becomes
severe unless the birds have been properly beak-trimmed
(Mauldin, 1992).

Is it possible that cannibalism in those circumstances can be due to bad breeding?

That's quite possible.. considering those birds are only being bred for massive egg production.. they really don't care about anything else. They don't care if the birds are long lived since as soon as they are a year to two years old they are culled (depending on the company), they don't care about their personalities or conformation. Only that they can produce the most eggs for what food they are given. Unfortunately some of those same strains of birds make their way into hatchery stock.
Since the emphasis is on egg production.. it's pretty easy to see that aggression issues and vent pecking aren't a major concern to the breeders of those birds when de-beaking will "solve" the problem in a commercial egg production flock.

 

[Kilsharion]

Okay I've been FF for about 3 weeks now, and i have to say those of you that say it isnt time consuming, ARE DEAD WRONG. First, I want to do it but it is extremely time conauming for me. One I can't get the water thing down. I only let it ferment for about 12 hours at a time. There is the the sifting of of the water out of the feed, X 2 because I have chicks. This is done two times a day. I don't get to stir as much as it takes. I have to get up at 4:30am just to start my feeding before work, then i come home and have to do it again. So for those of you that are doing this and working fulltime, please tell me your secret. I have 1 layer coop to feed and 5 breeding coops and a room of chicks. HELP

My secret? I don' tthink there is one. I get up around 6 or 6:30 depending on how annoying I find the alarm that morning, and head in to work by ~7:30/8 am. When a project's not going, I'm home by ~6:30pm or so. When a project's going, I'm not home until 9 or later, most nights. For my full growns, that doesn't make a difference to them as they eat FF in the morning only and forage the reset of the day. My husband or neighbour will toss out scratch in the afternoons from time to time, or if it's being a nasty day, I'll put a bucket of dry feed in the coop with them in the morning since I know they won't be foraging. My keets and chicks get a second bowl of feed when I get home at night - and, I tend to feed them so much that it lasts until not long before I get home.

As for how long it takes? I just started another bucket, yesterday. It took me 15 minutes to drive to the store and get the ACV with mother that I thought I had on hand. It took me about 20 minutes of puttering around, washing the bucket and spoon, tripping over and yelling at the cat, dumping the ACV in the bucket, yelling at the dogs for being dogs, dumping the feed in the bucket, squealing at my husband for trying to tickle me, dumping in a tablespoon of yeast and stirring. Covered it and let it sit for a full day. I'll be using that bucket, starting tomorrow. My other bucket was a) too small for my uses and b)....we won't talk about how a certain young man of dubious parentage (ie. me) sat the bucket on the floor without the cover, nor about how certain canines of dubious life expectancy (my dogs) decided it was a great thing to pee upon....Yeah, I didn't even try to salvage any of it.

So, back to the original response - if we don't count driving to the store, it took me 20 min to get it started. I stir mine in the morning and in the evening when I get home. I know...others say to stir it more often, and that's certainly the desire. But, I start it at night and as I walk through the kitchen, or think about it, I walk in and stir it that first night. Otherwise, it gets stirred twice a day - in the morning and in the evening...maybe one more time before I go to bed if I think about it. It takes less than five minutes to walk over to it, stir it and go back to what I was doing.

As for chicks....don't worry about getting it super dry. I pull mine out and let it strain a bit in the morning using a large slotted scoop. I don't drain it all the way dry; and, I add goats milk to it....so, it's pretty darn soupy when my keets and chicks get it. My husband calls it feed soup. They couldn't care less. They're on it drinking and eating it down. It takes me roughly 15 minutes to strain the food in my slotted spoon (feeding as much as you do, you could use a colander and speed it up - I've used one when cleaning a bucket), dump it into all the bowls (four of them, right now), add the milk, stir it all in, take the baby's feed out to the brooder. Then I add another 20 minutes taking out the other three bowls to the boys' and girls'...it would not take that long, except that I and my husband take our coffee when we go out and spend time talking and drinking coffee while watching the chickens (yay for Texas mornings). We come back in, refill the coffee and have the rest of our "coffee time" (until about 7) and then I get ready for work.

Compared to the 45 minutes spent on getting the bowls ready in the morning, I only spend 15. That's a 30 minute savings each morning, for me. So, it keeps me from having to get up earlier.

The 45 minutes is because when I'm not doing an FF, I'm doing a warm, wet mash. If you are doing dry feed, it may take you less time - especially if you do as some and fill the feeder full so you don't have to top it up each morning.

 

[flyinchicks]

Okay I've been FF for about 3 weeks now, and i have to say those of you that say it isnt time consuming, ARE DEAD WRONG. First, I want to do it but it is extremely time conauming for me. One I can't get the water thing down. I only let it ferment for about 12 hours at a time. There is the the sifting of of the water out of the feed, X 2 because I have chicks. This is done two times a day. I don't get to stir as much as it takes. I have to get up at 4:30am just to start my feeding before work, then i come home and have to do it again. So for those of you that are doing this and working fulltime, please tell me your secret. I have 1 layer coop to feed and 5 breeding coops and a room of chicks. HELP

I felt the same way at first but now that I have done it a while it takes about 20 min in the morning for me to feed 2 pens. At first I was fermenting layer and grains. I use the double bucket system that is mentioned many times in this thread. It was taking about 20-30 minutes to drain. Too long for me most days. So I switched and went to a system like Kassandra (I think) mentioned. Now I only ferment the whole grains and I leave dry layer free choice. For the chick pen I leave dry grower free choice. It drains in a about a minute. It has really cut down on my time and they still get the benefits. I also only feed once a day and stir sometimes twice a day.

The chickens still prefer the FF but if they happen to run out there is the dry food.

 

[yinepu]

Quote:
Disclaimer: The way I make mine is not the "preferred way".. but for now it's working alright for me

I make mine extremely thick... i have several buckets going.. (I have a lot of birds to feed).. so there are buckets of fermented mash as well as fermented cracked corn / grains. The cracked corn gets strained through a basket strainer.. but it drains extremely fast. The mash is very thick.. so I don't bother to drain it at all since there really isn't anything to drain.

Since I am feeding in the afternoon now, once they are fed i take the remnants in the bucket and add more water (washing down the inside walls into the mix).. then start scooping in feed and stirring it as it's added.. After I get enough feed in the buckets I "top it off" with water which is just enough to allow for bubbling and feed expansion and give it another good stir. By the next morning you can see where it has been bubbling and there is a white film across the surface as well. If it looks a bit TOO dry i'll spray it down with the hose (I keep the buckets out in the feed shed). If I feel like it I'll give all the buckets a quick stir.. otherwise I leave it til a bit later in the day.

I tried the very sloppy wet mix and quite honestly I saw and smelled no difference in the ferments. Yes, I realize the "proper" way is to have several inches of water over the surface of the grain.. But it takes forever for it to drain when I have so many birds to feed. IF i should run into a situation where it starts to smell "off" or go moldy, then I'll have to rig some way of draining it.. but for now I'm treating it a lot like I did sourdough.. add water and grain (in the case of sourdough it was flour), stir, cover, leave it alone. Remove what I need. add more grain and water and cover it til next time.

Now when I started mine I used some alaskan sourdough starter I had in the freezer.. used some game bird starter plus some layer crumbles and a good bit of water.. stirred it and left it covered for a few hours.. came back and added more feed and water then stirred again.. i did that several times since that's how i would normally start a sourdough starter. After maybe a week I was able to get some of the ACV with the mother.. so I added some of that to each bucket as well.
Once I decided to start the cracked corn and scratch grains I just used a scoop from my mash bucket as the starter for those buckets plus added a bit more of the ACV.


I am planning on adding raw goat milk kefir next week since I'll have my goats here and will have some excess milk.

 

[RollinWithTheStones]

Took about 60 seconds for the chicks to realize the FF was food and they started to gobble it all up. I think we have a winner, now i just have to dig up some more buckets to start my next batch.

 

[mstricer]

Okay I've been FF for about 3 weeks now, and i have to say those of you that say it isnt time consuming, ARE DEAD WRONG. First, I want to do it but it is extremely time conauming for me. One I can't get the water thing down. I only let it ferment for about 12 hours at a time. There is the the sifting of of the water out of the feed, X 2 because I have chicks. This is done two times a day. I don't get to stir as much as it takes. I have to get up at 4:30am just to start my feeding before work, then i come home and have to do it again. So for those of you that are doing this and working fulltime, please tell me your secret. I have 1 layer coop to feed iu 5 breeding coops and a room of chicks. HELP

My secret?  I don' tthink there is one. I get up around 6 or 6:30 depending on how annoying I find the alarm that morning, and head in to work by ~7:30/8 am. When a project's not going, I'm home by ~6:30pm or so.  When a project's going, I'm not home until 9 or later, most nights. For my full growns, that doesn't make a difference to them as they eat FF in the morning only and forage the reset of the day.  My husband or neighbour will toss out scratch o the afternoons from time to time, or if it's being a nasty day, I'll put a bucket of dry feed in the coop with them in the morning since I know they won't be foraging. My keets and chicks get a second bowl of feed when I get home at night - and, I tend to feed them so much that it lasts until not long before I get home.

As for how long it takes?  I just started another bucket, yesterday.  It took me 15 minutes to drive to the store and get the ACV with mother that I thought I had on hand.  It took me about 20 minutes of puttering around, washing the bucket and spoon, tripping over and pyelling at the cat, dumping the ACV in the bucket, yelling at the dogs for being dogs, dumping the feed in the bucket, squealing at my husband for trying to tickle me, dumping in a tablespoon of yeast and stirring.  Covered it and let it sit for a full day.  I'll be using that bucket, starting tomorrow.  My other bucket was a) too small for my uses and b)....we won't talk about how a certain young man of dubious parentage (ie. me) sat the bucket on the floor without the cover, nor about how certain canines of dubious life expectancy (my dogs) decided it was a great thing to pee upon....Yeah, I didn't even try to salvage any of it.

So, back to the original response - if we don't count driving to the store, it took me 20 min to get it started.  I stir mine in the morning and in the evening when I get home.  I know...others say to stir it more often, and that's certainly the desire.  But, I start it at night and as I walk through the kitchen, or think about it, I walk in and stir it that first night.  Otherwise, it gets stirred twice a day - in the morning and in the evening...maybe one more time before I go to bed if I think about it.  It takes less than five minutes to walk over to it, stir it and go back to what I was doing.

As for chicks....don't worry about getting it super dry.  I pull mine out and let it strain a bit in the morning using a large slotted scoop.  I don't drain it all the way dry; and, I add goats milk to it....so, it's pretty darn soupy when my keets and chicks get it. My husband calls it feed soup.  They couldn't care less.  They're on it drinking and eating it down. It takes me roughly p15 minutes to strain the food in my slotted spoon (feeding as much as you do, you could use a colander and speed it up - I've used one when cleaning a bucket), dump it into all the bowls (four of them, right now), add the milk, stir it all in, take the baby's feed out to the brooder. Then I add another 20 minutes taking out the other three bowls to the boys' and girls'...it would not take that long, except that I and my husband take our coffee when we go out and spend time talking and drinking coffee while watching the chickens (yay for Texas mornings).  We come back in, refill the coffee and have the rest of our "coffee time" (until about 7) and then I get ready for work.

Compared to the 45 minutes spent on getting the bowls ready in the morning, I only spend 15.  That's a 30 minute savings each morning, for me.  So, it keeps me from having to get up earlier.

The 45 minutes is because when I'm not doing an FF, I'm doing a warm, wet mash.  If you are doing dry feed, it may take you less time - especially if you do as some and fill the feeder full so you don't have to top it up each morning.

Disclaimer: The way I make mine is not the "preferred way".. but for now it's working alright for me

pI make mine extremely thick... i have several buckets going.. (I have a lot of birds to feed).. so there are buckets of fermented mash as well as fermented cracked corn / grains. The cracked corn gets strained through a basket strainer.. but it drains extremely fast. The mash is very thick.. so I don't bother to drain it at all since there really isn't anything to drain. 

Since I am feeding in the afternoon now, once they are fed i take the remnants in the bucket and add more water (washing down the inside walls into the mix).. then start scooping in feed and stirring it as it's added.. After I get enough feed in the buckets I "top it off" with water which is just enough to allow for bubbling and feed expansion and give it another good stir. By the next morning you can see where it has been bubbling and there is a white film across the surface as well. If it looks a bit TOO dry i'll spray it down with the hose (I keep the buckets out in the feed shed). If I feel like it I'll give all the buckets a quick stir.. otherwise I leave it til a bit later in the day. 

I tried the very sloppy wet mix and quite honestly I saw and smelled no difference in the ferments. Yes, I realize the "proper" way is to have several inches of water over the surface of the grain.. But it takes forever for it to drain when I have so many birds to feed. IF i should run into a situation where it starts to smell "off" or go moldy, then I'll have to rig some way of draining it.. but for now I'm treating it a lot like I did sourdough.. add water and grain (in the case of sourdough it was flour), stir, cover, leave it alone. Remove what I need. add more grain and water and cover it til next time. 

Now when I started mine I used some alaskan sourdough starter I had in the freezer.. used some game bird starter plus some layer crumbles and a good bit of water.. stirred it and left it covered for a few hours.. came back and added more feed and water then stirred again.. i did that several times since that's how i would normally start a sourdough starter. After maybe a week I was able to get some of the ACV with the mother.. so I added some of that to each bucket as well.
Once I decided to start the cracked corn and scratch grains I just used a scoop from my mash bucket as the starter for those buckets plus added a bit more of the ACV. 


I am planning on adding raw goat milk kefir next week since I'll have my goats here and will have some excess milk.

Okay then I'm going to continue with it. I will ferment the grains and add water and ACV to feed and make it thick. No different then im doing now. My Cx's would rather eat wood chips then the FF. Hopefully they will come around. I still think im usong less feed then before, but ive increased my scratch and woodland blend, plus ive bought oats twice now and both weren't what I wanted. I bought whole oats first. Definetly not what i wanted, then bought rolled oats and found out that it is the same as whole oats, only rolled to crack the hulls. So now I need.to find bulk oatmeal

 

[Noncentzter]

I use the one bucket system and feed ff once a day in the late afternoon (4:00ish) and they forage the rest of the day. I combine my rye grass pellets, mixed grains and layer feed in the bucket, add water and stir it all up. I let each bucket set for approx. 48 hours before it's used. I do add ACV+ to each bucket, but also leave approx 1-2 cups of ff in the bucket prior to filing it up. This system works well for me.

 

[Rockashelle]

Okay I've been FF for about 3 weeks now, and i have to say those of you that say it isnt time consuming, ARE DEAD WRONG. First, I want to do it but it is extremely time conauming for me. One I can't get the water thing down. I only let it ferment for about 12 hours at a time. There is the the sifting of of the water out of the feed, X 2 because I have chicks. This is done two times a day. I don't get to stir as much as it takes. I have to get up at 4:30am just to start my feeding before work, then i come home and have to do it again. So for those of you that are doing this and working fulltime, please tell me your secret. I have 1 layer coop to feed and 5 breeding coops and a room of chicks. HELP

Scoop your morning FF at night when you get home into the strainer and it will be all ready by morning, then scoop your evening feed in the morning to let it drain all day while you're at work. I'm up at 3:30 am every morning for work... Last thing l like to do is wait for FF drain. LOL!



PS - I get my strainer and bowls they fit in from the dollar store. Cheep investment!

 

[swga]

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610
Potential of bacterial fermentation as a biosafe method of improving feed for pigs and poultry

I don't know if this link has been posted before- apologies if it has!