Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[armorfirelady]

Is there a cliff-note version

So I read through some..
To a 5G bucket how much feed grain do you add (since it swells) 1/2, 3/4?

How much ACV is added(many different opinions)?

What is the typical grain/feed mixture(cost effective)?

How long is a 5G bucket last say 20 laying birds?

Why brewers yeast and molasses added, is it if its not fermenting fast enough or added bonus? How much of each?

Currently feeding Purina layer, I'll be adding spent grain to their diet. They free range most days...I'd love to feed organic and GMO free.. But can't afford it at the amount there eating.,
Thank you very much

I would fill it half way with dry food then add water/ACV and see how much it swells.....You will need to add water as it absorbs it up. And stir often as well. 1 tsp per quart 1 TBSP per gallon I think is what others recommend. Just make sure the ACV is with Mother to get the fermenting going. After it starts fermenting you dont need to add any more ACV as long as you back slop the liquid in the bucket. I dont think I have added ACV since last October and my FF is still fermenting happily

For the mixture I just added the grains until it looked like the mix I wanted with the layer pellets. Some cut back on the layer pellets during the winter when laying slows down and feed more grains then.

If you add dry food daily after scooping out the food for the day your bucket will have a never ending supply. When you start the FF you just have to see how much your chickens eat to see how long it will last you. When my hens started eating it they ate a lot but after a few days they slowed down. I like to give them enough that they still have a little left when they go to roost at night. Others only give them enough that they can eating a certain time. Its all what your preference is.

I have only used ACV with mother. I have never added yeast or molasses. And my food ferments just fine. It took a few days and a warm spot in the house to get fermemnting

 

[Kilsharion]

Amorfirelady answered very similarly to how I would in several ways. Here are my responses, take them for what they are worth:

To a 5G bucket how much feed grain do you add (since it swells) 1/2, 3/4?

Depending on the type of feed you are using, you will see differing results on the swelling. The best bet is to start off with about 1/4 of your bucket filled with feed and just top it off with water. I'd start this on a day you do not have to work or be elsewhere for extended periods of time. Keep an eye on it and stir it a few times throughout the day to help it process. You will see it swell as it incorporates the water. Just keep adding water as it does. Once you exceed its capacity to hold water, you can then top it up with an extra inch or water (as many do) or let it ferment 'dry' which is at the point of full absorption (which others do). I, personally, use the excess water method. You now know exactly how much space your feed is going to take to reach full soak, fermentation readiness. You can then adjust how much feed you add to your bucket to successfully ferment what you need for your birds.

How much ACV is added(many different opinions)?

You don't need much. As stated above, 1 tbsp/ gallon is effective. Honestly, 1 tbsp in an entire 5 gallon bucket is potentially effective, just depending on how long you let it sit before you start using it the first time. I've also tried with an entire bottle of ACV with mother, and it's worked fine as well......certainly smells strongly of vinegar at that point; but, it's worked and not retarded the fermentation (if using a yeast/starter).

What is the typical grain/feed mixture(cost effective)?

The cost effective part is going to depend on a few factors - not least of which is your area. Second would be your preference for feed. Some prefer to mix their own and live near a mill who will mix for them (way cost effective). Some prefer to mix their own and have to buy bulk at a whole-foods type store (not so cost effective). Some purchase standard feeds and scratches (like Purina) and do a ration of them (depending on the area, can be pretty effective cost wise). Some prefer to buy non-gmo, non-soy, organic feeds and grains and do a ration of them (not particularly cost effective). The ratio of feed to grain is going to depend on the protein and nutrient levels found in the feed being fermented. Fermentation, while it increases proteins and probiotics and various nutrients, also reduces certain nutrients. If you are using it for layers - as it looks like you are - you may want to consider this as layers have a much longer lifecycle than meat birds.

Because of this, you are going to want to be careful about the extent of protein increase that you are providing. Excessive protein will shorten the life of your bird due to the stress it puts on their system. Just as it does for humans and reptiles, etc. Generally speaking, fermentation will increase the protein content of feed by ~3%. That's a generality. It really depends on what's in the feed; but, I use this as an "eyeball" factor when figuring out my ratios for my layers. I try to keep my protein levels no higher than 21% for my layers. I ferment for them for the reduced feed waste, increased nutrient and health benefits.

The best way, I've found, to figure out my ratios for ensuring protein levels I want is this. A spreadsheet with the equations in it lets me plug in the nutritional information I want, tweak the parts until I get the overall result in the range I am desiring. Realize, though, you have to pay attention to all the nutritional factors important to your birds, not just the protein. That's why many (most) use a feed in addition to whatever supplements because they know the calculations for all the nutrients have been done already. That equation for figuring out CP, however, will work just as well for the rest of the nutrients, if you're of such a mind to track down all the information and calculate it.

How long is a 5G bucket last say 20 laying birds?

A five gallon bucket, half full, feeds my 38 birds (in the morning)....that's drained.

I feed my free rangers in the morning only. My confined birds get fed in the morning and in the afternoon. There are ~24 birds in my run and they go through about 1.25 gallons of drained FF in half a day. These are estimations, since I'm just eyeballing what's in the bucket. Also, I feed forage and have a dry mix free choice available to my birds.

Really, it's going to depend on your birds. On the nutrients they are deriving from what you are using to ferment, as well as whatever supplemental feed they are receiving.

And, as Amor stated, since we are constantly reusing the hooch....once you get it going the bucket should "never run dry"...

Why brewers yeast and molasses added, is it if its not fermenting fast enough or added bonus?

Using active yeast to kick start is just dependent on the individual fermenter...and, their environment. Many do not use yeast at all. Some do open bucket fermentation (yours truly) which encourages wild yeast colonies. Others do LAB fermentation in an anaerobic environment (sealed) that discourages yeast and instead uses lactic acid for their fermentation. All of them are totally viable ways to ferment (and some are done simultaneously as LABs do not require an anaerobic environment). It's all up to personal preference, in the end.

Molasses is full of micro and macro nutrients, as is the brewer's yeast nutritional supplement. Molasses is often added to organic feeds in its dried form because of this - and, that's also why you will find brewer's yeast in a lot of dog and cat foods.

Also, everyone, please....be clear when you are talking about "Brewer's Yeast". The brewer's yeast nutritional supplement sold in grocery stores is just that. The majority of the yeast that is sold as a nutritional supplement is a deactivated yeast. If you are using it, great. It does nothing for your fermentation, however. It would be best suited to add it after the fermentation, just prior to feeding, in my opinion (which is just that, my opinion). It gains nothing from fermentation and is such a fine powder that you wind up leaving a lot of the benefit behind in the hooch. Sure, the feed absorbs some of it; but, the majority of the benefits of the powder is lost. If you mix it in after you have drained your FF, you are getting much more bang for your buck.

Yes, there are two kinds of "brewer's yeast" out there. Just be aware. There's no harm in either one; but, the uses are a bit different depending.

How much of each?

You do not want to use a lot of molasses. And, if your feed already has molasses in it (check the ingredients), I'd really not suggest adding any more. Molasses is not a necessity; and, too much can cause runny pooh. I'd really only suggest adding it if a) you are mixing your own feed and really need the micro-macro nutrients you can get from molasses, or b) you need some assistance in kick starting your fermentation - the sugars from molasses release more quickly than grains/seeds and are thus easier for the yeasts to 'eat', so it's a good assist to them. If you are doing that, I'd add no more than tbsp per gallon of fermented feed. And, honestly, one tbsp per five gallons of feed would be sufficient if you're just using it as an assist to your yeast.

Yeast - activated - only needs a small amount to get started. 1 tbsp is more than enough. I've started with 1/2 tsp in the past. Yes, I play around with this to see what does and doesn't work and what the results are of each variable. I find I prefer the wild yeasts, though the smell is quite a bit different than using the various purchased, active yeasts.

Yeast - nutritional supplement - about 2 tbsp per gallon of drained feed should give you the vitamin boost you are wanting.

For my layers:

I use a feed + scratch mix of 2:1 for a total ferment result of ~20%. I then take that and mix in a mixture of kefir, mealworms and brewer's yeast (nutritional supplement). That mix is 2:2:1 and results in ~26% cp. I then mix together so that my overall cp is ~20.5% (96% FF + 4% supplement).

 

[SunnysMama]

Is there a cliff-note version

So I read through some..
To a 5G bucket how much feed grain do you add (since it swells) 1/2, 3/4? I usually add about 8 to 10 quarts of grain to a 5 gallon double bucket system. That's pretty close to the max it can take once the grain starts swelling.

How much ACV is added(many different opinions)? I used LAB to start mine so I'm not sure on this one

What is the typical grain/feed mixture(cost effective)? I use corn, oats, barley and wheat. It's about $48 for four 50# bags (1 of each) here

How long is a 5G bucket last say 20 laying birds? 8 quarts of fermented grains lasts my 53 laying hens 1 day

Why brewers yeast and molasses added, is it if its not fermenting fast enough or added bonus? How much of each? I think it's mainly to get your ferment started quicker

Currently feeding Purina layer, I'll be adding spent grain to their diet. They free range most days...I'd love to feed organic and GMO free.. But can't afford it at the amount there eating.,
Thank you very much

I can't afford organic either. My girls also get Layena free choice with fermented grains and free range. They love their fermented grains! I currently have 158 chicks in the brooder so my fermenting is about to be on a much bigger scale. I am currently just fermenting flock raiser for them until they go outside this next week.

 

[chxNaddicted]

Ill have to price things and see, here in So CA @ a local feed supply...a bag of scratch is $13.50 50lbs and layer is $16.50 50lbs. Ill need to see what they have as far a individual grains go? There is a mill ill call and check prices and include w/gas driving there.
Also see if Azure Standard is a option for us as they have many bulk grains too.
I will need to calculate this out... what is best because if the layers are forging during the day(multitude of bugs and worms here), and using spent grain as well..if a layer is even necessary verses just Fermented grain?!

 

[armorfirelady]

Ill have to price things and see, here in So CA @ a local feed supply...a bag of scratch is $13.50 50lbs and layer is $16.50 50lbs. Ill need to see what they have as far a individual grains go? There is a mill ill call and check prices and include w/gas driving there.
Also see if Azure Standard is a option for us as they have many bulk grains too.
I will need to calculate this out... what is best because if the layers are forging during the day(multitude of bugs and worms here), and using spent grain as well..if a layer is even necessary verses just Fermented grain?!

If you dont use layer feed you have to make sure you have calcium available for them. Even tho I do use layer is about half of their FF so I always have it available. And they do eat it.

 

[bbdal]

If I just started my ff for our pigs and chickens and for instance if a pig needs 2.5 lb of dry feed a day and the chickens need .25 lb of dry feed per day and I am only fermenting the whole grains, how much ff is equivalent to the dry feed they need per day? In my recipe, my ff dry mix is 82% of the whole recipe. I am not fermenting the protein and I am sprouting peas for them also. So, I have those weights already figured out. I don't want their feed to be off balance. Should I weigh it out before feeding or measure it by volume, ie if they need 1 scoop of dry feed, should I give 1 scoop of ff? If I should weigh it, and they need 2lb of dry whole grain feed, do they then need 2lb, 3 lb , etc of ff since it is heavier due to the water? Also just to clarify, I have an assembly line at each feeding and measure out x amt of ff, x amt of sprouts, and x amt of either my swime mix or poultry mix.
Thanks!

 

[Demosthine]

So, I've been fermenting my Start & Grow for about six months now, since I have a mixed flock at various stages. I do free-choice egg shells for the laying hens and everything has gone very, very well. The clan seems to absolutely love the feed and rushes to eat it, practically jumping in to the bowl before I can set it down. When I started, I never knew there was a "medicated" versus "non-medicated" feed and the shop never gave me an option. All the bags have been "medicated," as I found out when I bought the 50-pound bag instead of their smaller 10-pound and 25-pound bags.

Not that I particularly care either way, but does fermenting the feed affect the "medicated" aspect? I know most animals' stomachs are far more acidic than what is in the fermented feed, but I haven't seen any information on that for poultry, since there systems are far different. Any ideas or links? Like I said, it's just something I was curious about and doesn't really worry me either way. Both are priced the same. Next round, I may switch over to the local co-op feed, too. It's strictly a mash, but that doesn't matter with fermenting. The crumbles and pellets turn out that way as it is.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Kilsharion]

The fermentation process does not affect the medication in the feed.

 

[Demosthine]

The fermentation process does not affect the medication in the feed.

Cool. Good to know. One more thing I can add to my recommendation of fermented feed these days. I'm recommending it to everyone, since I've had such great results.

Thanks.

 

[kacklinkelly]

OK FINALLY - I have true FF. I now understand what it looks like when it rises as well as when it is submerged in some water just slightly moistened. etc

The meaties are going crazy for it now. They are jumping at me and onto the food dish when I open the door to slide it into their
grow out pen. 4 weeks old and almost 2 lbs. One of them is showing signs of a leg issue and is breathing a little heavier than the
rest but is still moving around flapping her feathers, eating and drinking. So far she's holding her own. Will continue to monitor. not really sure what I'm looking for though.

I introduced the FF to our laying hens as a snack today. They took their time eating it but eventually ate it all. I consider this a
success and thanks to those of you providing support and challenging me to be patient. That truly was the trick. It took almost
8 days for my starter to take.