Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[Kilsharion]

Alright ya'll, I'm stumped. I've been doing the fermented feed for probably six months now and have a seemingly random development of the white film on top. Sometimes it's there, other times it's just the top of a murky bucket of water. I pretty much always get the bubbling and semi-sweet smell of a good ferment, though. Is there something in my city's water supply that would fluctuate enough to kill the mother occassionally?

I'm using the dual bucket method, so when it drains, the film does settle on top of the feed. I don't scoop that all out, though. Even still, it seems to disappear sometimes. I haven't found a pattern that makes sense.

You're not losing the mother. What you're seeing with the white film is actually a dual powered fermentation happening, so to speak. You're seeing a yeast and bacteria combined ferment. The mother is the 'snot' that settles on top of the feed under the hooch and is there well before you drain. The white film that sometimes forms on top of the hooch is a bacteria. I never, ever have a white film on top of my ferment...and, I'm certainly fermenting. Were you losing the mother, you would lose your bubbling and your sweet smell of a good ferment. So, all that's happening is you have a bacterial culture that sometimes has the right elements to grow and sometimes doesn't...and, through it all your mother and fermentation are going along just fine. No worries to be had.

 

[Demosthine]

And that bacteria is a good bacteria that can be fed to the chickens? I thought the mother was supposed to float on top, not settle on top of the solids, so that is great to know.

Any ideas on what would change the situation enough? A certain change in chlorine or pH? Should I let a jug of water sit overnight to off gas before refilling or just use reverse osmosis water? Or does it just not really natter?

 

[Kilsharion]

And that bacteria is a good bacteria that can be fed to the chickens? I thought the mother was supposed to float on top, not settle on top of the solids, so that is great to know.

Any ideas on what would change the situation enough? A certain change in chlorine or pH? Should I let a jug of water sit overnight to off gas before refilling or just use reverse osmosis water? Or does it just not really natter?

The only reason you'd let your water sit is if your water had chlorine in it. If you are using city water, you may want to check if it has chlorine or chloramine. Chloramine won't gas off just because it's sitting out. It's not unstable like chlorine is, which is why many plants have changed over to it. You can boil it out with a 20 min hard boil, supposedly; but, most suggest just using well, rain or bottled water to bypass it all together. However, the only real reason you'd have to do that is to avoid retarding your fermentation. You're having no problem at all with your fermentation, so I'd say just keep doing what you're doing.

You'll know if you get at bad bacteria. Trust me. The smell of roadkill on the side of the road after several hot summer days have passed? That's the smell of an "off" fermentation. As long as you have the semi-sweet smell and the carbonation, you're fermenting just fine. Bacteria will come and go depending on a number of factors. It's nothing to be overly concerned about.

When you have a mother in your fermentation, it is actually heavier than the water - so it settles to the 'bottom'...ie on top of your grains/feed/whatever you're fermenting. It's one reason you're told to stir the fermentation - yeast needs oxygen to stay lively. Bacteria, on the other hand, can do just peachy in an anaerobic environment (lacking in oxygen) or an aerobic (oxygen rich) environment. It's flexible that way.

I, honestly, don't see why you need to change anything you're doing. You have a good ferment going - just from time to time you get an extra bang for your buck. It's not bad for the chickens in the least - matter of fact, so long as it's a good bacteria - you get some extra outcome with it present. If you're wanting to make it happen all the time, you can look into inoculating with LABs (lactic acid bacteria) - there are some on here who have quite a bit of experience with them that could probably give you some good pointers. However, it's unnecessary to your current fermentation as you are running a perfectly fine set up the way you are. It would just be an added tweak.

 

[breegull]

Hi everyone, brand new poster and brand new chicken keeper! My roommate and I have 3 chickens (1 adult and 2 8-wk old pullets). We just got the pullets a few days ago, but eventually they will join the hen, free-ranging all day in our backyard. I'd love to give them fermented feed, it sounds great. I have my dog on a raw diet, but I think I'll start looking into what I can ferment for him as well!

My main question is, what type of container would I use for such a small batch of feed? We're talking tiny batches for just 1 or 2 chickens, since I guess I'll have to make 2 different mixtures until the little ones are ready for the layer pellets. Should I just ferment a few cups at a time?

Next question is, where's a good place to start if I want to add some grains or seed to the pellets? So far they have only had pellets to round out their foraging, no whole grains. I have a bunch of lentils, black-eyed peas, and split peas that have been in my pantry for a long time, not getting eaten. I'd like to use those, but I'm not sure about the ratios of grain to legumes to pellets.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Lacy: While I was in rural Mexico a few years back, I was sleeping on the floor of a family home. They keep their doors and windows open to cool their homes and have no screens. I woke up to a tickling on my arm. I reached up to brush it off and jerked up and awake as if I'd just been given a triple shot of espresso straight to the blood stream. I had brushed a massive roach off of my arm and onto my husband....I, to this day, will not let him live down the little girl scream that came out of his macho-man 60-something mouth when he realized what had landed on his chest. I have never seen that man move so fast in my life. I still get the giggles when I think about it.

That is too funny, also the next one with the roach in the bathroom!

About the LAB, has there been any progress to the version for idiots? Someone gave a brief comment explaining it, but I'd like to know the "why" and what its uses are and exactly how to do it.

When my ferment gets that white film on top that looks like something atomic, I add more vinegar. You're saying its a good thing?

 

[Kilsharion]

Hi everyone, brand new poster and brand new chicken keeper! My roommate and I have 3 chickens (1 adult and 2 8-wk old pullets). We just got the pullets a few days ago, but eventually they will join the hen, free-ranging all day in our backyard. I'd love to give them fermented feed, it sounds great. I have my dog on a raw diet, but I think I'll start looking into what I can ferment for him as well!

My main question is, what type of container would I use for such a small batch of feed? We're talking tiny batches for just 1 or 2 chickens, since I guess I'll have to make 2 different mixtures until the little ones are ready for the layer pellets. Should I just ferment a few cups at a time?

Next question is, where's a good place to start if I want to add some grains or seed to the pellets? So far they have only had pellets to round out their foraging, no whole grains. I have a bunch of lentils, black-eyed peas, and split peas that have been in my pantry for a long time, not getting eaten. I'd like to use those, but I'm not sure about the ratios of grain to legumes to pellets.

A five gallon bucket about half full would do the job for you with such a small group. You can use a slotted spoon to scoop it out and strain it in the mornings. Just toss back in a cup or so of feed and top off the liquid when it starts to get too low. You'll probably never use all the food in one go; but, that's not an issue.

You can use flock raiser feed instead of grower & layer feeds separately. Just be sure to sit out calcium (oystershell, whatever) for your hen. It will help to keep you from having to do two separate mixes.

Lentils are great. I use them pretty regularly. They have a crude protein level of 30% so use in moderation. Remember that fermenting adds roughly 3% protein to feed being used. Split peas is the name of the "field pea" when used for human consumption. It's been used for ages as a feed ingredient, so feel free to toss it into the mix if you like. Field peas rate about 24.5% on crude protein and compare favorably to other feed ingredients. I feed my gals our left over black eyed peas from time to time; but, I've never fermented them. I've treated them more as a treat than anything. They have a crude protein content of 23.2% and are also known as "black eyed cowpeas". Their composition is decent enough that adding them as a part of your fermentation would not be a bad thing.

If you are wanting to add scratch grains, check out the cp levels on the tag. Most are in the range of 8 to 11% cp. If that's the case, you can use this calculator to determine what mix you need to hit the % crude protein you need for your pullets & hen. Start by using the CP for the legumes + scratch mix (don't worry that they call one part of it "concentrate", just put your scratch information there). It will tell you how many parts each are required.

Like this:



Then take that mix + the pellets and it will tell you how many parts of each of those is needed to get the final cp. Remember, fermenting will increase the amount of protein in the feed and help with the absorption of the nutrients, so you don't have to go crazy with the %s.

 

[Kilsharion]

That is too funny, also the next one with the roach in the bathroom!

About the LAB, has there been any progress to the version for idiots? Someone gave a brief comment explaining it, but I'd like to know the "why" and what its uses are and exactly how to do it.

I haven't put anything together on LABs, though it's part of what I'm working on. The why is because of how it ferments. Yeast fermentation results in ethanol byproduct. Lactobacillus fermentation (depending on the bacterium used) results in a lactic acid byproduct. Some do not care for the fact that they are making an ethanol product (even though the vinegar will convert it before it ever becomes any sort of ABV to even register) and so they avoid using yeast or heterofermentative lactobacillus altogether. It's a personal preference. Just, if that's why you choose to go with LABs - be sure you're doing it with the correct LAB (homofermentative) - otherwise, you'll defeat your purpose....heterofermentative LABs are often used in conjunction with yeast for alcoholic beverages (ie. beers).

Lactobacillus fermentation is the kind of fermentation that is done to create things like kimchi, yogurt and sauerkraut. Some do their LAB fermentation in an anaerobic environment. Some LABs do well in an aerobic environment, as well, so you don't have to put them in a sealed container. When people do put them in a sealed container, it's often to help avoid getting any yeasts or additional bacteria in the mix that could make the flavour of the fermentation go off - or spoil the fermentation. Yeasts cannot survive in an anaerobic environment.

Some here who have started their fermented feed with sourdough have actually used a LAB to start their feed. Sourdough is a combination of yeast and lactobacillus.

The key benefit for me of adding LABs is that it helps to neutralize the PH of your fermentation.



Quote:

It can be a good thing - depends on what the bacteria (or mold) is. So long as you aren't getting strange colours or smells, it's generally considered harmless. Some consider it beneficial. I never have had such a thing happen on my FF, so I cannot diagnose it. I just don't seem to be able to fully reproduce the environmental variables to create what others have experienced.

 

[breegull]

A five gallon bucket about half full would do the job for you with such a small group. You can use a slotted spoon to scoop it out and strain it in the mornings. Just toss back in a cup or so of feed and top off the liquid when it starts to get too low. You'll probably never use all the food in one go; but, that's not an issue.

You can use flock raiser feed instead of grower & layer feeds separately. Just be sure to sit out calcium (oystershell, whatever) for your hen. It will help to keep you from having to do two separate mixes.

Lentils are great. I use them pretty regularly. They have a crude protein level of 30% so use in moderation. Remember that fermenting adds roughly 3% protein to feed being used. Split peas is the name of the "field pea" when used for human consumption. It's been used for ages as a feed ingredient, so feel free to toss it into the mix if you like. Field peas rate about 24.5% on crude protein and compare favorably to other feed ingredients. I feed my gals our left over black eyed peas from time to time; but, I've never fermented them. I've treated them more as a treat than anything. They have a crude protein content of 23.2% and are also known as "black eyed cowpeas". Their composition is decent enough that adding them as a part of your fermentation would not be a bad thing.

If you are wanting to add scratch grains, check out the cp levels on the tag. Most are in the range of 8 to 11% cp. If that's the case, you can use this calculator to determine what mix you need to hit the % crude protein you need for your pullets & hen. Start by using the CP for the legumes + scratch mix (don't worry that they call one part of it "concentrate", just put your scratch information there). It will tell you how many parts each are required.

Like this:

[image]

Then take that mix + the pellets and it will tell you how many parts of each of those is needed to get the final cp. Remember, fermenting will increase the amount of protein in the feed and help with the absorption of the nutrients, so you don't have to go crazy with the %s.

Thank you!! I hadn't found specific % levels of each of them, so that is very helpful. And thanks for the confirmation that they are all good to use. I had found the pearson square online, but was dreading doing the math...I didn't even think to look for an online calculator to do it for me!

I already have the two different pellet feeds, so I guess I will use the grower pellets in my first batch of food (with calcium available on the side) and save the layer stuff for later.

 

[Kilsharion]

Thank you!! I hadn't found specific % levels of each of them, so that is very helpful. And thanks for the confirmation that they are all good to use. I had found the pearson square online, but was dreading doing the math...I didn't even think to look for an online calculator to do it for me!

I already have the two different pellet feeds, so I guess I will use the grower pellets in my first batch of food (with calcium available on the side) and save the layer stuff for later.

The calculator really helps

 

[bbdal]

My husband handled the ff while I was out of town. We are new to ff so it has only been me researching and dealing with it so far. Anyhow, he left a big metal spoon sitting in it all day today. He thought he was helping me by finding me a spoon to reach the bottom of the bucket. He didn't know metal should not be used. How long would the ff have to be in contact with metal for me to be worried about contamination from the metal? Thanks!