Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[armorfirelady]

Quote: I use grains for my hens. And the person who helped get the ration right suggested a 1.2 cup per bird. Of course its a little more in the winter when they have no forage & during the spring/summer I plan on giving them less so they search for their own food

 

[tjo804]

I use grains for my hens. And the person who helped get the ration right suggested a 1.2 cup per bird. Of course its a little more in the winter when they have no forage & during the spring/summer I plan on giving them less so they search for their own food

Thank you

 

[armorfirelady]

Quote: that should be 1/2 cup per bird. sorry didnt catch my error before

 

[cortner1195]

I am worried that the two week old meaties are growing too fast. They are little round blobs. They walk a few steps and plop back down. We shut their lights down at night to just the red heat lamp. There are eighteen of the little blobs playing Jaba the Hut out there. I have a small feeder from my layers that I have used for grit or oyster shell. We fill it 2-3 times per day. Twice per day I fill the whole trough ring portion of the feeder with ff. They eat everything. The feeder holds probably 6-8 cups of dry feed in the center cone. They are still on chick starter, and vitamin supplement in their water. That is 18% protein.
Do I keep feeding them this way, or start to limit it to 15" three times per day? As they keep growing they will need more volume of food. I have had them 9 days and we are 3/4 done with one bag of chick starter.

 

[cortner1195]

Thanks for the advice! I will have them over to only fermented food once they are off of 24 hour availibility. I am worried about what grain percent to use when the chick starter is gone.

 

[RoseMarie1]

Nite! I'm so proud of your tough love!

learning from the best.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I wanted to share some not-so-positive experiences I have had using fermented feed. I do not blame fermented feed for my problems but feel it probably made things a lot worse.

In late January I separated two pullets from my free ranging flock to get their feathers in shape for a couple of shows in March. I put them in a fenced vegetable garden (about 20' by 25' give or take a bit) that was bare except for some dried tomato, squash and pepper stalks. They had a coop made from a pre-fab dog house which was bedded with hay.

About this time, I received two new birds from a breeder and one came out of the shipping box with a slight cough. I ended up taking that bird to an avian vet and we treated her with oral Tylan and she recovered. About two days after going to the vet, we had a wicked cold front blow in with 35mph winds. I battened down my coops a little too tightly, and knew I had made a big mistake when I opened the one coop (a portable coop) to warm moist air and a couple of coughs. Not sure that the coughs were from the poor ventilation or from a disease I had inadvertently transferred to my birds from the quarantined new (sick) bird, I treated everyone with oral Tylan for five days. The few slight coughs stopped on the first day once they had fresh air.

Unbeknownst to me, the two pullets who were in the bare garden ate the hay bedding and probably the dried stalks out of boredom and ended up with really badly impacted crops. I ended up taking them to the avian vet (with extensive poultry-science education) where we treated with Nystatin for yeast/fungal overgrowth, spinach (which actually is very good at breaking up masses in the crop), 15mls of water tubed into the crop three times a day accompanied with gentle crop massage. Feed was scratch, again better at breaking up masses than soft food is. The crop contents were foul (an understatement!) smelling, like wet compost. The vet said the birds were basically composting in their crop.

One pullet remained particularly gassy (evidence of yeast overgrowth) so she was treated a second time with Nystatin but still had a very gassy crop. After the second round of Nystatin, we switched directions and gave her an over-the-counter infant colic medication which breaks up gas into tiny bubbles and acidified her water (one tablespoon apple cider vinegar per quart).

The gas distended her crop and prevented her from eating so I helped her burp up the gas but it was getting worse. Unfortunately, on Tuesday, she aspirated on some crop contents that came up with the gas bubble when I picked her up to medicate her. She had that distended a crop. Again took her to the vet where we treated her with Lasix to remove fluid from the lungs and Baytril to deal with any infection we might get.

I understand most of you would have culled at the first sign of illness way back in February, and understand your rationale, but this letter is not about my decision not to cull, but about fermenting feed.

After a week of acidifying her water, I believed the organisms that had taken up residence in her crop were acid-loving ones. The crop had a good smell to it.

Since this bird was not responding to anything and still had some sort of imbalance of organisms in the crop, we changed tacts again. She was taken off everything except the Baytril injections (to try to prevent possible aspiration pneumonia).

My belief is that whatever acid-loving organisms are present in fermented feed over grew in her crop as a result of the antibiotics she was given. Her crop contents did not have a bad smell at all after the initial few days of flushing the crop out related to the original impaction.

As soon as I took away her highly acidic drinking water, spinach (full of oxalic acid) and gave her some oyster shells, her gassy crop dramatically improved and continues to improve (I stopped trying to acidify her crop a day and a half ago).

I am not sure I want to go back to ff which is, I believe, using an acid-producing organism to ferment.

 

[LindaB220]

I wanted to share some not-so-positive experiences I have had using fermented feed. I do not blame fermented feed for my problems but feel it probably made things a lot worse.

In late January I separated two pullets from my free ranging flock to get their feathers in shape for a couple of shows in March. I put them in a fenced vegetable garden (about 20' by 25' give or take a bit) that was bare except for some dried tomato, squash and pepper stalks. They had a coop made from a pre-fab dog house which was bedded with hay.

About this time, I received two new birds from a breeder and one came out of the shipping box with a slight cough. I ended up taking that bird to an avian vet and we treated her with oral Tylan and she recovered. About two days after going to the vet, we had a wicked cold front blow in with 35mph winds. I battened down my coops a little too tightly, and knew I had made a big mistake when I opened the one coop (a portable coop) to warm moist air and a couple of coughs. Not sure that the coughs were from the poor ventilation or from a disease I had inadvertently transferred to my birds from the quarantined new (sick) bird, I treated everyone with oral Tylan for five days. The few slight coughs stopped on the first day once they had fresh air.

Unbeknownst to me, the two pullets who were in the bare garden ate the hay bedding and probably the dried stalks out of boredom and ended up with really badly impacted crops. I ended up taking them to the avian vet (with extensive poultry-science education) where we treated with Nystatin for yeast/fungal overgrowth, spinach (which actually is very good at breaking up masses in the crop), 15mls of water tubed into the crop three times a day accompanied with gentle crop massage. Feed was scratch, again better at breaking up masses than soft food is. The crop contents were foul (an understatement!) smelling, like wet compost. The vet said the birds were basically composting in their crop.

One pullet remained particularly gassy (evidence of yeast overgrowth) so she was treated a second time with Nystatin but still had a very gassy crop. After the second round of Nystatin, we switched directions and gave her an over-the-counter infant colic medication which breaks up gas into tiny bubbles and acidified her water (one tablespoon apple cider vinegar per quart).

The gas distended her crop and prevented her from eating so I helped her burp up the gas but it was getting worse. Unfortunately, on Tuesday, she aspirated on some crop contents that came up with the gas bubble when I picked her up to medicate her. She had that distended a crop. Again took her to the vet where we treated her with Lasix to remove fluid from the lungs and Baytril to deal with any infection we might get.

I understand most of you would have culled at the first sign of illness way back in February, and understand your rationale, but this letter is not about my decision not to cull, but about fermenting feed.

After a week of acidifying her water, I believed the organisms that had taken up residence in her crop were acid-loving ones. The crop had a good smell to it.

Since this bird was not responding to anything and still had some sort of imbalance of organisms in the crop, we changed tacts again. She was taken off everything except the Baytril injections (to try to prevent possible aspiration pneumonia).

My belief is that whatever acid-loving organisms are present in fermented feed over grew in her crop as a result of the antibiotics she was given. Her crop contents did not have a bad smell at all after the initial few days of flushing the crop out related to the original impaction.

As soon as I took away her highly acidic drinking water, spinach (full of oxalic acid) and gave her some oyster shells, her gassy crop dramatically improved and continues to improve (I stopped trying to acidify her crop a day and a half ago).

I am not sure I want to go back to ff which is, I believe, using an acid-producing organism to ferment.

Sorry for your troubles, perhaps Beekissed can give you an answer on the FF. I do know that ventilation may be the key to making it worse.

 

[Beekissed]

I wanted to share some not-so-positive experiences I have had using fermented feed. I do not blame fermented feed for my problems but feel it probably made things a lot worse.

In late January I separated two pullets from my free ranging flock to get their feathers in shape for a couple of shows in March. I put them in a fenced vegetable garden (about 20' by 25' give or take a bit) that was bare except for some dried tomato, squash and pepper stalks. They had a coop made from a pre-fab dog house which was bedded with hay.

About this time, I received two new birds from a breeder and one came out of the shipping box with a slight cough. I ended up taking that bird to an avian vet and we treated her with oral Tylan and she recovered. About two days after going to the vet, we had a wicked cold front blow in with 35mph winds. I battened down my coops a little too tightly, and knew I had made a big mistake when I opened the one coop (a portable coop) to warm moist air and a couple of coughs. Not sure that the coughs were from the poor ventilation or from a disease I had inadvertently transferred to my birds from the quarantined new (sick) bird, I treated everyone with oral Tylan for five days. The few slight coughs stopped on the first day once they had fresh air.

Unbeknownst to me, the two pullets who were in the bare garden ate the hay bedding and probably the dried stalks out of boredom and ended up with really badly impacted crops. I ended up taking them to the avian vet (with extensive poultry-science education) where we treated with Nystatin for yeast/fungal overgrowth, spinach (which actually is very good at breaking up masses in the crop), 15mls of water tubed into the crop three times a day accompanied with gentle crop massage. Feed was scratch, again better at breaking up masses than soft food is. The crop contents were foul (an understatement!) smelling, like wet compost. The vet said the birds were basically composting in their crop.

One pullet remained particularly gassy (evidence of yeast overgrowth) so she was treated a second time with Nystatin but still had a very gassy crop. After the second round of Nystatin, we switched directions and gave her an over-the-counter infant colic medication which breaks up gas into tiny bubbles and acidified her water (one tablespoon apple cider vinegar per quart).

The gas distended her crop and prevented her from eating so I helped her burp up the gas but it was getting worse. Unfortunately, on Tuesday, she aspirated on some crop contents that came up with the gas bubble when I picked her up to medicate her. She had that distended a crop. Again took her to the vet where we treated her with Lasix to remove fluid from the lungs and Baytril to deal with any infection we might get.

I understand most of you would have culled at the first sign of illness way back in February, and understand your rationale, but this letter is not about my decision not to cull, but about fermenting feed.

After a week of acidifying her water, I believed the organisms that had taken up residence in her crop were acid-loving ones. The crop had a good smell to it.

Since this bird was not responding to anything and still had some sort of imbalance of organisms in the crop, we changed tacts again. She was taken off everything except the Baytril injections (to try to prevent possible aspiration pneumonia).

My belief is that whatever acid-loving organisms are present in fermented feed over grew in her crop as a result of the antibiotics she was given. Her crop contents did not have a bad smell at all after the initial few days of flushing the crop out related to the original impaction.

As soon as I took away her highly acidic drinking water, spinach (full of oxalic acid) and gave her some oyster shells, her gassy crop dramatically improved and continues to improve (I stopped trying to acidify her crop a day and a half ago).

I am not sure I want to go back to ff which is, I believe, using an acid-producing organism to ferment.

The FF seems to be a minor player in all the things gone wrong in this scenario. The antibiotics given kill good flora in the gut and feeding FF while still killing good flora isn't going to fix the gut until AFTER the antibiotics have been finished for 48-72 hrs~in essence, the antibiotics were killing all the good guys too. The feeds given in all this mess really had nothing to do with what resulted in those birds, IMO. I believe the consumption of hay with the pathogens(feces, molds, and fungus therein) introduced into a an essentially dead gut flora(killed by antibiotic usage) after antibiotic use allowed the overgrowth of the wrong kind of yeasts.

I don't believe the FF had any impact on this outcome at all, not worsening it or compounding it in any way. But...that's just a nursing standpoint and I have no proof of that, just an understanding of the body and how antibiotics work on it. I think in the whole saga, giving FF was the only thing that was done right. Sick birds, enclosed, warm, damp space, ingestion of contaminated grasses that could not advance out of the crop, then followed by broad spectrum antibiotics, would have produced the exact same results if the birds had NOT been eating fermented feed.

The only positive and healthy move that was taken in that whole story was the feeding of feeds that boost the immune system and populate the gut with normal, active organisms and it could have even helped the birds recover more quickly than they would have otherwise.

 

[jajeanpierre]

The FF seems to be a minor player in all the things gone wrong in this scenario. The antibiotics given kill good flora in the gut and feeding FF while still killing good flora isn't going to fix the gut until AFTER the antibiotics have been finished for 48-72 hrs~in essence, the antibiotics were killing all the good guys too. The feeds given in all this mess really had nothing to do with what resulted in those birds, IMO. I believe the consumption of hay with the pathogens(feces, molds, and fungus therein) introduced into a an essentially dead gut flora(killed by antibiotic usage) after antibiotic use allowed the overgrowth of the wrong kind of yeasts.

I don't believe the FF had any impact on this outcome at all, not worsening it or compounding it in any way. But...that's just a nursing standpoint and I have no proof of that, just an understanding of the body and how antibiotics work on it. I think in the whole saga, giving FF was the only thing that was done right. Sick birds, enclosed, warm, damp space, ingestion of contaminated grasses that could not advance out of the crop, then followed by broad spectrum antibiotics, would have produced the exact same results if the birds had NOT been eating fermented feed.

The only positive and healthy move that was taken in that whole story was the feeding of feeds that boost the immune system and populate the gut with normal, active organisms and it could have even helped the birds recover more quickly than they would have otherwise.

I agree with you that the whole cascade of events was precipitated by two things: impacted crops, and antibiotics which disturbed the healthy flora in the crop.

That said, once the antibiotics were stopped for a month and the crop cleared, there were still crop issues due to the overgrowth of some unhealthy flora, or flora that are unhealthy to the bird when in high numbers.

These pathogens only responded when we made the crop's PH higher (more base). That is the exact opposite to what happens when you give apple cider vinegar and use ff, which is a lacto acid fermentation.

I just wanted to share this with the group.

The bird is not out of the woods yet. She would be if I hadn't held her in such a way that she spit up and aspirated on it. She seems very healthy now and the crop is almost behaving normally less than 48 hours after stopping trying to make the crop more acid. She is now on injectable Baytril (a powerful antibiotic) for the next 10 days, I think, so I will have to be very careful with her that we don't get a repeat of a flora imbalance in the crop. Let me rephrase that--I'll have to be careful that I don't make the already imbalance of flora worse again.

I believe whatever microbes ferments feed set up shop in her crop and caused all the gas problems, which caused her crop to be unbelievably huge and distended. A stretched crop is a flacid crop which doesn't work. Everything was flacid and she was trying to relieve the pressure and ended up spitting up and aspirating. The gas-producing, acid loving microbes might never overpopulate a healthy crop that was emptying properly, but she started with a crop that was positively putrid. I'm shocked she lived considering how sick the two of them got and how toxic the crop contents had to have been. While many might want to cull her for "unthriftiness," I am leaning towards believing this bird is as tough as nails who ran into some bad luck from human (mis-) management.

I'm feeling a bit superstitious about the whole FF thing. FF goes against every part of my being that believes in fresh food, and fermenting is basically decomposition. I need to get over my superstitious reaction. I am thinking of starting another batch of ff, but it will take me a few days I think before I get over my fear.

This bird, should she live and not go on to develop aspiration pneumonia, will not have access to ff for quite some time. I need to get her crop in shape before I add a lot of acid-loving microbes (that is in ff) to a crop that is short of the microbes that keep everything in balance.

I would appreciate some advice on repopulating her GI with good microbes but not by using ff. I may ask the vet about probiotics. He originally wanted to be a poultry pathologist but decided he truly enjoyed chickens too much to only work with dead ones, so he switched from poultry science to being an avian veterinarian.