Fermenting Feed for Sourdough Nerds

[Sally PB]

Volumes of what you used? Or ratios? How long does it take to ferment?

Really appreciate this thread!

 

[yakitori]

Volumes of what you used? Or ratios? How long does it take to ferment?

Really appreciate this thread!

Sorry, I didn’t put the measurements up because I’m such a lazy butt. I just measured and the ratio is as follows:-

starter:water:feed
1:4:8

so for my mason jar it was:
- 1/4 cup fermented feed
(or sourdough starter)
- 1 cup water
- 2 cups feed

Mix starter with water, then add feed and mix really well. if it still seems a little dry you can add more water.

Cover with saran wrap to prevent critters from getting in.

This should be ready in 4 - 6 hours on the counter top. depending on your room temperature. If you put it in the fridge right away I would go atleast 12 hours for a good ferment.

After it’s done you can refrigerate for up to 4 days (or freeze for months, but it may kill the probiotics)

you can also potentially go less on the starter, you would just ferment for longer.


To be honest I rarely ever measure, i normally go by smell and texture. I ferment about 5lbs at a time and It’s much easier to eye it when dealing with a bigger batch.

image: quart jar vs my 5lb batch

 

[Sally PB]

Thank you so much! This is very helpful.

 

[Dephora]

I do two types of ferment, lacto and yeast. I do this type of ferment you are doing with my meat birds, the yeast helps them to gain weight very quickly.

However, I have always done the "two inches of water over the feed and wait 3 days to grow the lacto acid" method for my lacto ferment to promote more eggs and good digestion with my laying birds.

Obviously, I do the two types of fermenting to get different results. I want good gut flora to help digestion in my laying hens with the lacto ferment. I want more protein and weight gain with my meat birds with the yeast ferment.

I have never done a yeast ferment for my laying hens or with any birds for a long period of time, obviously the meat birds arent long for this world. I always was curious if it eventually leads to a yeast over growth and sour crop. Please keep us posted on how it turns out for you in the next months! I would love to hear how they lay over winter.

 

[yakitori]

I do two types of ferment, lacto and yeast. I do this type of ferment you are doing with my meat birds, the yeast helps them to gain weight very quickly.

However, I have always done the "two inches of water over the feed and wait 3 days to grow the lacto acid" method for my lacto ferment to promote more eggs and good digestion with my laying birds.

Obviously, I do the two types of fermenting to get different results. I want good gut flora to help digestion in my laying hens with the lacto ferment. I want more protein and weight gain with my meat birds with the yeast ferment.

I have never done a yeast ferment for my laying hens or with any birds for a long period of time, obviously the meat birds arent long for this world. I always was curious if it eventually leads to a yeast over growth and sour crop. Please keep us posted on how it turns out for you in the next months! I would love to hear how they lay over winter.

Hmm... I believe sourdough is a lacto-ferment (accounts for the sour flavor), ofcourse it also contains yeast. I believe all grains (which is what feed is mostly comprised of) have a tendency to undergo yeast *and* bacteria fermentation if left to naturally ferment. Are you saying that there is a way to keep it strictly yeast fermented or bacterial fermented?

I have not seen much weight gain in my chickens, ofcourse, they are only 15 weeks old and growing, so I guess we’ll find out

 

[Dephora]

Hmm... I believe sourdough is a lacto-ferment (accounts for the sour flavor), ofcourse it also contains yeast. I believe all grains (which is what feed is mostly comprised of) have a tendency to undergo yeast *and* bacteria fermentation if left to naturally ferment. Are you saying that there is a way to keep it strictly yeast fermented or bacterial fermented?

I have not seen much weight gain in my chickens, of course, they are only 15 weeks old and growing, so I guess we’ll find out

Hello! I could talk about fermenting all day.

So you are correct in that sourdough, specifically not all breads, does get "sour" or tangy from lactic acid produced from lacto bacteria when caught at the right end of the ferment of the dough, a PH of 3.5. The thing is how you keep your starter directly impacts what you will be growing if you add it to anything. A starter with a PH of 5 for instance (hope the PH of the starter isn't more base than that!) used would produce a mostly yeast ferment. Especially if you do a short ferment.

Neither lacto bacteria or yeast can live in harmony for long, as by design lacto bacteria makes whatever it is in acidic "sour". Yeast and harmful bacteria can't stand an acid environment. So you must keep feeding the starter to lower the acid level once again to get yeast to grow. To keep it balance. So I have always felt that when you keep a ferment open to air and use a starter (that most likely was recently fed, PH 5), what you are really growing is lots of yeast, depending on how long you are letting it ferment. If you are letting it sit for 2 days, you most certainly are making a large colony of lacto bacteria, eariler than that and it is yeast.

When I did my own experiments using starter, with open air ferment, my PH was always neutral to base, a sure sign of a yeast ferment, at 5.5 PH to 6.0 PH. This was after a ferment for 12 hours. I never let it sit longer but I am sure a longer ferment would have made the PH more acidic, unless mold or harmful bacteria took over.

One tsp of yeast is 1.6g of protein. A half cup of sour dough starter has as much as 38.4g of protein. So yeast is a pretty good source of protein.

In general, other than with kombucha and sourdough fermentation, all fermentation practice are either lacto or yeast. Alcohol, is strictly yeast fermentation, pickles or kraut is strictly lacto bacteria, having a combo of BOTH working together is disastrous in most cases other than the mentioned examples. As if you try to do both you won't get the product you want. It is very EASY to do one type of fermentation over the other, you just need to set the right conditions.

Basically to grow yeast you need sugar, open air exchange, and base to neutral PH.
To grow lacto bacteria you need carbs, no air, and an acid PH. (some ferments also use salt to make sure lacto bacteria takes hold and all other bacteria and yeast die)

Having a high PH level is the easiest way to get a lacto ferment, as well as taking all the oxygen away. This is why people put water over the feed, to limit oxygen exchange and kill the yeast, as the yeast dies away the lacto raises the PH and makes the environment even less hospitable to yeast and bad bacteria, botulism for example cant live in a PH of 4.6, I don't feed a lacto ferment unless its PH is 4.5. A simple digital ph reader for 10 dollars can help any good fermenter figure out WHAT organism they are fermenting with. A base or neutral reading at the time of feeding is a yeast ferment (if it even got to that stage, some people feed so early I think they are just feeding soaked feed). An acidic reading is a lacto ferment.

So basically, what I am getting at, is that in my own experiments with it, all I grew were yeast as the majority. I kind of rambled here! But I hope you found some of it helpful. If you would like me to post some links to research into lacto fermentation poultry feed and why I prefer it over yeast for my egg layers just let me know. There are so many studies out there.

15 weeks! What age does their breed start laying? This year I raised some easter eggers on fermented feed to see if it impacted their laying, Their mothers did not start laying until around 24-28 weeks! EE are notorious for their late starts. But would you believe my clutch this year started at 19-22 weeks? I was very pleased with the results, I bet your chicks will start laying a little earlier than you expected as well.

 

[yakitori]

Hello! I could talk about fermenting all day.

So you are correct in that sourdough, specifically not all breads, does get "sour" or tangy from lactic acid produced from lacto bacteria when caught at the right end of the ferment of the dough, a PH of 3.5. The thing is how you keep your starter directly impacts what you will be growing if you add it to anything. A starter with a PH of 5 for instance (hope the PH of the starter isn't more base than that!) used would produce a mostly yeast ferment. Especially if you do a short ferment.

Neither lacto bacteria or yeast can live in harmony for long, as by design lacto bacteria makes whatever it is in acidic "sour". Yeast and harmful bacteria can't stand an acid environment. So you must keep feeding the starter to lower the acid level once again to get yeast to grow. To keep it balance. So I have always felt that when you keep a ferment open to air and use a starter (that most likely was recently fed, PH 5), what you are really growing is lots of yeast, depending on how long you are letting it ferment. If you are letting it sit for 2 days, you most certainly are making a large colony of lacto bacteria, eariler than that and it is yeast.

When I did my own experiments using starter, with open air ferment, my PH was always neutral to base, a sure sign of a yeast ferment, at 5.5 PH to 6.0 PH. This was after a ferment for 12 hours. I never let it sit longer but I am sure a longer ferment would have made the PH more acidic, unless mold or harmful bacteria took over.

One tsp of yeast is 1.6g of protein. A half cup of sour dough starter has as much as 38.4g of protein. So yeast is a pretty good source of protein.

In general, other than with kombucha and sourdough fermentation, all fermentation practice are either lacto or yeast. Alcohol, is strictly yeast fermentation, pickles or kraut is strictly lacto bacteria, having a combo of BOTH working together is disastrous in most cases other than the mentioned examples. As if you try to do both you won't get the product you want. It is very EASY to do one type of fermentation over the other, you just need to set the right conditions.

Basically to grow yeast you need sugar, open air exchange, and base to neutral PH.
To grow lacto bacteria you need carbs, no air, and an acid PH. (some ferments also use salt to make sure lacto bacteria takes hold and all other bacteria and yeast die)

Having a high PH level is the easiest way to get a lacto ferment, as well as taking all the oxygen away. This is why people put water over the feed, to limit oxygen exchange and kill the yeast, as the yeast dies away the lacto raises the PH and makes the environment even less hospitable to yeast and bad bacteria, botulism for example cant live in a PH of 4.6, I don't feed a lacto ferment unless its PH is 4.5. A simple digital ph reader for 10 dollars can help any good fermenter figure out WHAT organism they are fermenting with. A base or neutral reading at the time of feeding is a yeast ferment (if it even got to that stage, some people feed so early I think they are just feeding soaked feed). An acidic reading is a lacto ferment.

So basically, what I am getting at, is that in my own experiments with it, all I grew were yeast as the majority. I kind of rambled here! But I hope you found some of it helpful. If you would like me to post some links to research into lacto fermentation poultry feed and why I prefer it over yeast for my egg layers just let me know. There are so many studies out there.

15 weeks! What age does their breed start laying? This year I raised some easter eggers on fermented feed to see if it impacted their laying, Their mothers did not start laying until around 24-28 weeks! EE are notorious for their late starts. But would you believe my clutch this year started at 19-22 weeks? I was very pleased with the results, I bet your chicks will start laying a little earlier than you expected as well.

Oh, I’ve always read that yeast is capable of both aerobic and anaerobic fermentation. Certainly not as prolific as lactobacter, but will still have significant presence to aid in fermentation. I believe anaerobic yeast fermentation is generally what happens in dough.

I often make bread with fruit of flower yeasts, which involves sugar added to water and some fruit or flower. The jar is then sealed to be air tight, and burped twice daily (if not using an airlock). Bread made from dough leavened with this fermented mixture does not have a sour flavor, despite undergoing an extended period of fermentation. I presume that would indicate lack of lactobacter and that yeast was successfully cultured in an anaerobic environment.

Ofcourse I’m being purely theoretical here and I have not carried out actual experiments.

Unfortunately I do not have a PH meter to test any of this, neither am I an especially scientifically inclined person, so maybe someone else will chime in on this!

I have EEs too, but winter is approaching... so who knows!

 

[Dephora]

Oh, I’ve always read that yeast is capable of both aerobic and anaerobic fermentation. Certainly not as prolific as lactobacter, but will still have significant presence to aid in fermentation. I believe anaerobic yeast fermentation is generally what happens in dough.

I often make bread with fruit of flower yeasts, which involves sugar added to water and some fruit or flower. The jar is then sealed to be air tight, and burped twice daily (if not using an airlock). Bread made from dough leavened with this fermented mixture does not have a sour flavor, despite undergoing an extended period of fermentation. I presume that would indicate lack of lactobacter and that yeast was successfully cultured in an anaerobic environment.

Ofcourse I’m being purely theoretical here and I have not carried out actual experiments.

Unfortunately I do not have a PH meter to test any of this, neither am I an especially scientifically inclined person, so maybe someone else will chime in on this!

I have EEs too, but winter is approaching... so who knows!

You make an excellent point about the wild yeast water. Anaerobic fermentation for yeast is ONLY possible if the yeast is being fed sugar (which could be a cup of sugar, or ground grain releasing the sugar, or fruit juice). Anaerobic growth for most yeasts is not possible, without being fed sugar. I have also made "wild yeast water" and is great in a snap when you are out of yeast. And I by a snap I mean 3 days where you wonder why you didn't just go to the store.

In that instance the reason yeast grows and not lacto bacteria which thrives much better in an Anaerobic setting is because lacto bacteria needs carbs to grow and the yeast is being fed a ton of sugar so they get the "jump" instead, once they get going they make the PH more neutral to base, stalling the lacto bacteria, so unless carbs are added for the lacto bacteria they will never take off in the jar like the yeast will. So all these conditions together make the best conditions for a yeast ferment. If you want to call making wild yeast water a ferment that is.

I would do an experiment where I kept the wild yeast water on the counter even after the bubbles stop. I remember having to use it at the peak of its development. I wonder what would grow after the yeast ate all the sugar? Probably nothing good without carbs in there! lol

Wild yeast water reminds me alot of a kombucha actually, As the first stage of kombucha fermentation is yeast fermentation, where yest turns the sugar to alcohol. Though kombucha needs a ton of oxygen to do its thing, so I don't think I could ever get a scoby out of wild yeast water with it being covered.

Well My Easter Eggers have always laid during winter, so I wouldn't lose hope. Especially when it is their first year. No idea if that is because we feed fermented feed or if it is because I supplement with barley fodder and kelp over winter. Most my chickens don't stop laying, though I do have some breeds that slow down.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Thanks for sharing! I could never ferment my chickens feed because I have around 70 chickens and that would be very hard. That's great to know, though!

Volumes of what you used? Or ratios? How long does it take to ferment?

Really appreciate this thread!

Well My Easter Eggers have always laid during winter, so I wouldn't lose hope. Especially when it is their first year. No idea if that is because we feed fermented feed or if it is because I supplement with barley fodder and kelp over winter. Most my chickens don't stop laying, though I do have some breeds that slow down.

Hello friends!

Fermented feed helped teach me chicken math with all it's claims about feed savings.. I could get 30% more birds, right?! Then I was free ranging already too.. so another 30% more birds should still be affordable.. right?! But wait.. I spout barley fodder too...


I will share that after feeding ONLY FF started from a formulated flock raiser ration for 2+ years for a flock of 72+ birds.. I didn't save a dime, or see a hint of increased laying, NOR anything else other than the INITIAL decrease in droppings stink. I didn't increase health of an already healthy flock. Yes, it can be done for a flock that size.. first I used two plastic totes, back slopped and fed out every other day.. plenty fermented. Then I upgraded to a large plastic trash can stirred by an oar and topped up about half way down.. every other day-ish.

The best study I have seen on the subject states that how *most* of us are starting our ferment naturally.. is NOT sufficient to create a consistent fermentation quality AND that taste deteriorates rapidly. Noting if I have to ADD a starter it's increasing my cost and defeating part of my purpose.
file:///home/chronos/u-5cc07996839ed7db41ca2bf9246136425b20a5ce/MyFiles/Downloads/60378-Article%20Text-111356-1-10-20101001%20(1).pdf

In the end.. my final conclusion.. fermenting is fantastic, stanky, fun.. it was great to see the fluffiness, the layers of separation, and see my family and friends reaction (even my Korean Kimchi eating family). I even fermented dog food, don't!

I wasted a LOT of time and energy.. I think it makes for good enrichment but beyond that feel as though I can get AS much benefit JUST from feeding wet mash that hasn't been fermented.. Now I offer wet mash occasionally.

Please note.. most chickens in their first year of laying don't stop because they usually stop to molt which happens when they are older, most often around their 2nd fall and every fall after that. Lay hormone is light driven.. so as daylight hours decrease so will production.. which often also has to do with how long they can intake energy.. which effects production as well... First year layers slowing but not quitting lay has nothing to do with FF.. that's just nature.

The biggest change for me that impacts heavily the molt season, feather quality, health, and ALL things is using higher amino acid (protein) feed that "layer" all year long and not diminishing with excess low nutrient high energy treats (like corn, scratch, or even meal worms) and offering oyster shell on the side for active layers.. my birds go into molt with more nutrients on board and have less harsh molts returning to lay sooner and not becoming severely withdrawn during that time.

Yes, I sprout and fodder for my birds. It's a waste of time FOR ME that I do because I like to.. it offers a little something different for enrichment.. but my birds free range on an acre+ of mostly lushness year round.. will pick the seed off the fodder and leave the fodder behind. Please note..longer green part does NOT mean more energy or calories it still has the same DRY MATTER content at day 3 as day 7...
Fodder Nutrient values

I used to feel guilty if I didn't ferment, like I wasn't doing the best for my birds. That's total hogwash.. and how does unformulating a ration I paid to get formulated benefit anyone..

Fermenting and sprouting some things would be the best way to offer them and can be LOADS of fun.. But don't buy the HYPE!!!! Educate yourself and do what makes sense to YOU!

 

[yakitori]

Fermenting and sprouting some things would be the best way to offer them and can be LOADS of fun.. But don't buy the HYPE!!!! Educate yourself and do what makes sense to YOU!

I ferment because it’s super easy for me (add water, add feed, mix) and I get less stink. I can’t verify any of the other benefits, but the odor part is definitely valid. Switching to fermented feed made indoor brooding a pleasant experience (I kept my chicks in until 8 weeks). I’m keeping 3 7week old silkie mixes in a small tote right now in the living room, and I don’t have to run fans like I did with my first brood. My chicken coop smells lovely... I actually like taking a whiff of the coop bedding while I’m scooping poop (don’t judge me please! the mixture of pine and coffee I use makes it smell really nice ) and if I didn’t have fencing around the run, you wouldn’t even know I had chickens here!

As for any added health benefits, well that’s a bonus