Fermenting Feed for Sourdough Nerds

[EggSighted4Life]

I ferment because it’s super easy for me (add water, add feed, mix) and I get less stink. I can’t verify any of the other benefits, but the odor part is definitely valid

Well, after a long time of doing it.. that was the only real benifit I noted and was going to suggest you read the link to the study about other benefits.. some confirmed and other not.. but NOW I see my link isn't working and will try and fix it!

attempt 2..
file:///home/chronos/u-5cc07996839ed7db41ca2bf9246136425b20a5ce/MyFiles/Downloads/60378-Article%20Text-111356-1-10-20101001.pdf

ETA: still trying to figure out why that's not a link and not sure if you copy and past whether it will show the study or not. So here is another link that has lots of fermentation information and it blue links are often to studies or other relative information like their resources etc..
https://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com/p/fermented-feed.html?m=1

If you're gonna ferment.. getting the right starter MIGHT be key.

 

[yakitori]

And I by a snap I mean 3 days where you wonder why you didn't just go to the store.

I don’t like the smell and flavor of commercial yeast. Making a poolish fixes that problem, but that takes extra time too.Why do all the good things take time to make, grrr!

 

[yakitori]

ETA: still trying to figure out why that's not a link

From the path it looks like it’s something off your computer and not the internet. Is it on a private server or something?

 

[Dephora]

Hello friends!

Fermented feed helped teach me chicken math with all it's claims about feed savings.. I could get 30% more birds, right?! Then I was free ranging already too.. so another 30% more birds should still be affordable.. right?! But wait.. I spout barley fodder too...


I will share that after feeding ONLY FF started from a formulated flock raiser ration for 2+ years for a flock of 72+ birds.. I didn't save a dime, or see a hint of increased laying, NOR anything else other than the INITIAL decrease in droppings stink. I didn't increase health of an already healthy flock. Yes, it can be done for a flock that size.. first I used two plastic totes, back slopped and fed out every other day.. plenty fermented. Then I upgraded to a large plastic trash can stirred by an oar and topped up about half way down.. every other day-ish.

The best study I have seen on the subject states that how *most* of us are starting our ferment naturally.. is NOT sufficient to create a consistent fermentation quality AND that taste deteriorates rapidly. Noting if I have to ADD a starter it's increasing my cost and defeating part of my purpose.
file:///home/chronos/u-5cc07996839ed7db41ca2bf9246136425b20a5ce/MyFiles/Downloads/60378-Article%20Text-111356-1-10-20101001%20(1).pdf

In the end.. my final conclusion.. fermenting is fantastic, stanky, fun.. it was great to see the fluffiness, the layers of separation, and see my family and friends reaction (even my Korean Kimchi eating family). I even fermented dog food, don't!

I wasted a LOT of time and energy.. I think it makes for good enrichment but beyond that feel as though I can get AS much benefit JUST from feeding wet mash that hasn't been fermented.. Now I offer wet mash occasionally.

Please note.. most chickens in their first year of laying don't stop because they usually stop to molt which happens when they are older, most often around their 2nd fall and every fall after that. Lay hormone is light driven.. so as daylight hours decrease so will production.. which often also has to do with how long they can intake energy.. which effects production as well... First year layers slowing but not quitting lay has nothing to do with FF.. that's just nature.

The biggest change for me that impacts heavily the molt season, feather quality, health, and ALL things is using higher amino acid (protein) feed that "layer" all year long and not diminishing with excess low nutrient high energy treats (like corn, scratch, or even meal worms) and offering oyster shell on the side for active layers.. my birds go into molt with more nutrients on board and have less harsh molts returning to lay sooner and not becoming severely withdrawn during that time.

Yes, I sprout and fodder for my birds. It's a waste of time FOR ME that I do because I like to.. it offers a little something different for enrichment.. but my birds free range on an acre+ of mostly lushness year round.. will pick the seed off the fodder and leave the fodder behind. Please note..longer green part does NOT mean more energy or calories it still has the same DRY MATTER content at day 3 as day 7...
Fodder Nutrient values

I used to feel guilty if I didn't ferment, like I wasn't doing the best for my birds. That's total hogwash.. and how does unformulating a ration I paid to get formulated benefit anyone..

Fermenting and sprouting some things would be the best way to offer them and can be LOADS of fun.. But don't buy the HYPE!!!! Educate yourself and do what makes sense to YOU!

Thank you so much for sharing your experience! 72 plus birds! I already feel overwhelmed with 30, I can't imagine trying to ferment for that many birds.
I can totally see why the quality of fermented feed may go down over time, in theory it should get better is what everyone says, but I understand at any point something may get in there that ruins the quality and if you grow too much lacto bacteria you have to start adjusting your ferment times. Once a month I always add 1/4 tsp of whatever lacto culture I have on hand into my ferment, I have noticed that after doing this that the chickens poops always firm up if they weren't already and they dive into it with even more gusto but then I have to shorten my ferment time for a few weeks. All the studies I have read only follow the birds for a year or so of laying, or for weight growth for meat birds. So I would love to read a long term study, how do I get your article to work!

 

[Dephora]

I ferment because it’s super easy for me (add water, add feed, mix) and I get less stink. I can’t verify any of the other benefits, but the odor part is definitely valid. Switching to fermented feed made indoor brooding a pleasant experience (I kept my chicks in until 8 weeks). I’m keeping 3 7week old silkie mixes in a small tote right now in the living room, and I don’t have to run fans like I did with my first brood. My chicken coop smells lovely... I actually like taking a whiff of the coop bedding while I’m scooping poop (don’t judge me please! the mixture of pine and coffee I use makes it smell really nice ) and if I didn’t have fencing around the run, you wouldn’t even know I had chickens here!

As for any added health benefits, well that’s a bonus

Wow tell me more about your bedding, I use sand so there isn't much smell at all. But I wouldn't mind a coop that smelled like a hipster coffee bar in Christmas.

 

[Dephora]

Well, after a long time of doing it.. that was the only real benifit I noted and was going to suggest you read the link to the study about other benefits.. some confirmed and other not.. but NOW I see my link isn't working and will try and fix it!

attempt 2..
file:///home/chronos/u-5cc07996839ed7db41ca2bf9246136425b20a5ce/MyFiles/Downloads/60378-Article%20Text-111356-1-10-20101001.pdf

ETA: still trying to figure out why that's not a link and not sure if you copy and past whether it will show the study or not. So here is another link that has lots of fermentation information and it blue links are often to studies or other relative information like their resources etc..
https://naturalchickenkeeping.blogspot.com/p/fermented-feed.html?m=1

If you're gonna ferment.. getting the right starter MIGHT be key.

I know you never noticed any difference with egg qaulity etc. But With 72 plus birds I imagine disease can spread very quickly, did you ever notice a difference in sniffles, sneezing, or outright illness? Any difference in parasites? I only have my own birds to go off of. I have never had a sick bird in 5 years. As I said, I am unsure if it is from the FF or the oregano/parsley, or the kelp. My "neighbors" have all commented on it, but really I told them I do so many things I can't say for sure what it is, as there is good research to say that any of the things I do may be impacting the birds health, I may just be very lucky as well.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I know you never noticed any difference with egg qaulity etc. But With 72 plus birds I imagine disease can spread very quickly, did you ever notice a difference in sniffles, sneezing, or outright illness? Any difference in parasites? I only have my own birds to go off of. I have never had a sick bird in 5 years. As I said, I am unsure if it is from the FF or the oregano/parsley, or the kelp. My "neighbors" have all commented on it, but really I told them I do so many things I can't say for sure what it is, as there is good research to say that any of the things I do may be impacting the birds health, I may just be very lucky as well.

Holy cow.. you're in GP, we're neighbors practically!

We usually head that way at least once a month to see the in love's.

First and foremost.. there is no such thing as sniffles in my flock, period. Sniffles are NOT normal. I don't bring birds from unknowns sources.. only NPIP certified CHICKS or hatching eggs that are NOT vaccinated against Marek's and have never been on another pasture are welcome here... Which according to the state poultry vet as UC Davis in Ca.. Marek's is "ubiquitous" in poultry keeping environments.. and is not considered report-able with regard to impacting our food supply chain (since all factory birds are vaccinated) or even factored into NPIP.

I pretty much only see an occasional sneeze and it's usually in correlation to dust bathing.

I faced coccidiosis once or twice.. once on pasture I introduced chicks with no transition period or prior exposure before going out full time. Since then.. all chicks get a clump of outdoor dirt in the brooder. The other time, I had to crowd two groups together when a heat bulb went out in one brooder overnight and on the weekend when no place was open to get a replacement and was gone the full day out of town using well waterer without ability to change it. Then I started keeping many bulbs on hand since they blow often (switching to infrared bulbs it still happened and were $10 each + hard to tell if working or not) before I realized one brood worth of electricity literally covered the cost of my new heat plate.. which doesn't just randomly blow all the time (replacement bulbs aren't free) and is MORE fire safe and more easily adjusted, my chicks are happier.. Sorry too many details and a bit off topic.

I have never experienced outright illness.. and pretty sure the first time I suspected/saw.. Marek's (or was it nutrient deficit for no reason like I thought ) was using FF. I also had a hen that passed from egg binding, one dispatched with prolapse. When you keep that many birds you *may* see more things than an average keeper. But GENETICS cannot be dismissed as a huge factor. I recently sent a bird in for necropsy that was limping and unfortunately the lab says my flock is not VOID of the "world wide" Marek's.. I breed for immunity instead of choosing to use pharmaceuticals that help it hide in my blind spot possibly helping it mutate into super strains.. Gonna breed super strain birds instead!

Which leads to the question about parasites.. I DID have to treat for lice while using FF. Parasites WILL be effected by over all health and immune system including nutritional intake. But parasites both internal and external are also very relative to wildlife load, stock density, soil type, and weather conditions. Each bird has it's own immune system.. everything that can will attack the weakest among the flock first and work it's way up. Which leads back to my very first paragraph.. KEEP a CLOSED flock, NEVER bring in older birds from other sources... as chickens can harbor yet not succumb to or display symptoms of many things! When you do find something on one, treat them all so others don't become more viable targets.

Wow tell me more about your bedding, I use sand so there isn't much smell at all. But I wouldn't mind a coop that smelled like a hipster coffee bar in Christmas.

Is there already a thread about that coffee bedding.. I bought, used, and hate sand in my environment it's just a giant litter box that never dries out or worse stinks to high heaven when it starts raining.. I LOVE coffee though.. and figured getting it dry was part of the process that would eliminate it from my list of possibilities.. but i should definitely look into it too!

I did notice the OP had included actual PH levels.. which was something that was hard to get out of average users.

From the path it looks like it’s something off your computer and not the internet. Is it on a private server or something?

So what's weird is when I click on the bookmark to open it it's opening a pdf on my tablet.. I wonder if I post the bookmark..

Attempt 3!
Fermenting Study

Here is another study about FF.. One issue I make not of is they are taking an increased egg weight from a growing pullet and ALL of my pullet eggs are generally getting larger in size as they mature.. so always use discernment..
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19373724/

Time needed to ferment will matter depending on your temperature. So shorter in the summer for most folks.

ETA: attempt 3 netted it opening and downloading to my chomebook for the umteenth time I haven't faced any virus type computer conditions that I've noticed.. if you open it, it is good information. Sorry I can't figure it out differently!

 

[yakitori]

Wow tell me more about your bedding, I use sand so there isn't much smell at all. But I wouldn't mind a coop that smelled like a hipster coffee bar in Christmas.

lol!
I use pelletized horse bedding... and left over coffee grounds.

I have 5 birds and my coop is a 4x4, so I don’t know whether it would work in a walk in coop - just because of the way the bedding tends to pack down when not sifted.

I *love* this bedding, it’s very absorbent and will clump if it’s wet (scoop-able cecal poop!).

I dump my dried coffee grinds in there (we’re big coffee drinkers). I got the idea after a member on BYC posted about using used coffee grinds as bedding, there’s no way I can source that much ground coffee, so I resorted to this current middle-ground method. The bedding went in 7 weeks ago and I don’t see the need to change it out any time soon!

 

[yakitori]

Attempt 3!
Fermenting Study

yay it works! I’ll leave the reading to you scientists and reap the benefits through your discussions

 

[Dephora]

Holy cow.. you're in GP, we're neighbors practically!

We usually head that way at least once a month to see the in love's.

First and foremost.. there is no such thing as sniffles in my flock, period. Sniffles are NOT normal. I don't bring birds from unknowns sources.. only NPIP certified CHICKS or hatching eggs that are NOT vaccinated against Marek's and have never been on another pasture are welcome here... Which according to the state poultry vet as UC Davis in Ca.. Marek's is "ubiquitous" in poultry keeping environments.. and is not considered report-able with regard to impacting our food supply chain (since all factory birds are vaccinated) or even factored into NPIP.

I pretty much only see an occasional sneeze and it's usually in correlation to dust bathing.

I faced coccidiosis once or twice.. once on pasture I introduced chicks with no transition period or prior exposure before going out full time. Since then.. all chicks get a clump of outdoor dirt in the brooder. The other time, I had to crowd two groups together when a heat bulb went out in one brooder overnight and on the weekend when no place was open to get a replacement and was gone the full day out of town using well waterer without ability to change it. Then I started keeping many bulbs on hand since they blow often (switching to infrared bulbs it still happened and were $10 each + hard to tell if working or not) before I realized one brood worth of electricity literally covered the cost of my new heat plate.. which doesn't just randomly blow all the time (replacement bulbs aren't free) and is MORE fire safe and more easily adjusted, my chicks are happier.. Sorry too many details and a bit off topic.

I have never experienced outright illness.. and pretty sure the first time I suspected/saw.. Marek's (or was it nutrient deficit for no reason like I thought ) was using FF. I also had a hen that passed from egg binding, one dispatched with prolapse. When you keep that many birds you *may* see more things than an average keeper. But GENETICS cannot be dismissed as a huge factor. I recently sent a bird in for necropsy that was limping and unfortunately the lab says my flock is not VOID of the "world wide" Marek's.. I breed for immunity instead of choosing to use pharmaceuticals that help it hide in my blind spot possibly helping it mutate into super strains.. Gonna breed super strain birds instead!

Which leads to the question about parasites.. I DID have to treat for lice while using FF. Parasites WILL be effected by over all health and immune system including nutritional intake. But parasites both internal and external are also very relative to wildlife load, stock density, soil type, and weather conditions. Each bird has it's own immune system.. everything that can will attack the weakest among the flock first and work it's way up. Which leads back to my very first paragraph.. KEEP a CLOSED flock, NEVER bring in older birds from other sources... as chickens can harbor yet not succumb to or display symptoms of many things! When you do find something on one, treat them all so others don't become more viable targets.


Is there already a thread about that coffee bedding.. I bought, used, and hate sand in my environment it's just a giant litter box that never dries out or worse stinks to high heaven when it starts raining.. I LOVE coffee though.. and figured getting it dry was part of the process that would eliminate it from my list of possibilities.. but i should definitely look into it too!

I did notice the OP had included actual PH levels.. which was something that was hard to get out of average users.


So what's weird is when I click on the bookmark to open it it's opening a pdf on my tablet.. I wonder if I post the bookmark..

Attempt 3!
Fermenting Study

Here is another study about FF.. One issue I make not of is they are taking an increased egg weight from a growing pullet and ALL of my pullet eggs are generally getting larger in size as they mature.. so always use discernment..
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19373724/

Time needed to ferment will matter depending on your temperature. So shorter in the summer for most folks.

ETA: attempt 3 netted it opening and downloading to my chomebook for the umteenth time I haven't faced any virus type computer conditions that I've noticed.. if you open it, it is good information. Sorry I can't figure it out differently!

Gosh we are neighbors! Hope the recent fire avoided you. We got hit pretty bad this year. I was so anxious about evacuation. Was wondering if I was gonna have to let all the chickens out and hope they made it to safety. Sounds like you have strong stock, do you sell your pullets? You clearly put lots of time and effort into breeding the best chickens you can, while also raising them in the healthiest and most cost effective way.

I love a good meta-analysis. It is interesting that even the type of lacto bacteria will impact how effective the fermentation is on health of the animal. I am lucky enough to live near a brewery "store", it is actually how I bought most of my lacto cultures. I now go back and fourth between 4 lacto strains for chicken feed but Lactobacillus acidophilus is my favorite, You can even buy it on amazon! But I mostly keep them around for cheese/yogurt making.

I love that you noticed they got bigger eggs with pullets! While they did have a control group in the study you posted, what they don't say is that overall from their table they show that the chickens eating fermenting mash produced less eggs. Due to the fact they mention the chickens hated the feed and so got less protein? who knows. But I love doing a critical analysis, people can make any result sound positive if they know how to write, always important to look at everything with a critical eye. Bigger eggs sure, but they made less eggs soooo....

Awww yes play sand can be rather wet if that is what you used. I have a walk in coop that is a foot off the ground, so I get lots of air on the "under carriage" Helps it dry.
I also use "river sand" so the pebbles are from grit than fine, plus zeolite for more absorption. Every morning I go out with my shovel with holes drilled in it and clean it out. Not that much of a hassle, but am thinking of doing a deep litter method with the next coop I am working on. I do love being able to take the chicken poop as is and use it in my various composts. I love the smell of coffee though, if I didn't feed my grounds to my worm bins I would consider using them in the coop!