Fermenting Questions

[AllenK RGV]

I will look into that... don't like to spread misinformation... Though I recognize it as yeast, didn't realize it somehow isn't part of the SCOBY. Well, anyhow... thanks for the info!

Don't forget though... dry feed DOES meet the needs perfectly well for chickens, that's why it's formulated. Don't be convinced like so many are that if you don't ferment you are somehow providing less than acceptable to your birds as that simply isn't true.

My ACTUAL saving from fermenting was 10% not the 30% some claim and then disclose "oh my birds range". Of course I realize all situations will be different... and it's probably even effected by the level of you ferment. I'm not sure it's ACTUALLY fully fermented by 3 days (whole grains ferment slower), so you may or may not be receiving the full benefit. One way to tell the truth of your ferment ripeness is with a PH meter. But when you just start to see the bubbles taking place... that is the start.

Best wishes and good luck!

I'm not at all worried about the savings as I am interested in feathering out my birds as fast as possible with dietary yeasts increasing protein a bit, decreasing free sugars and working their yeast magic to produce vitamins(I'm 90% sure yeasts will produce B-12, one of the few organisms without a liver to do so). Just my random $0.02.

 

[Michael Propst]

If you are starting a FRESH BATCH, that new batch needs 3-4 days in a warm environment to become fermented. It should smell like yeasty bread when it's fermenting. You should make a batch big enough to feed your flock for 3-4 days. On day 3 or 4 (even 5 or 6 during the winter), you should be at the point where there's not enough left to feed a full feeding, at which you then start a new batch WITH THE LEFTOVERS..... in which then it will take no more than 24 hours for it to ferment.

Mine is so backslopped that it takes less than half a day for mine to be fully fermented, even though it's cold. I keep my bucket outside, loosely covered, in the direct sun.... so it kind of *cooks* from the sunlight heat.

Good luck... and everyone should give themselves a learning curve. I studied about chickens for a full year before getting my first 8... and was still running to BYC to get answers daily!!!

Thanks. I had to take a crash course on raising and caring for my hens. My neighbors moved and had eight 4 month old hens they could not take with. I agreed to take them back in July and have been learning since.

 

[Titan Farm]

I'm not at all worried about the savings as I am interested in feathering out my birds as fast as possible with dietary yeasts increasing protein a bit, decreasing free sugars and working their yeast magic to produce vitamins(I'm 90% sure yeasts will produce B-12, one of the few organisms without a liver to do so). Just my random $0.02.

Yeast can not produce B-12, at all.
Fermentation will actually reduce some B vitamins and reduce some amino acids wile also raising the amount of calories in the finished feed. The reduction of B vitamins and the higher calories in there fermented feed is why chickens eat less of the feed.
The end result is a imbalanced feed.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Yeast can not produce B-12, at all.
Fermentation will actually reduce some B vitamins and reduce some amino acids wile also raising the amount of calories in the finished feed. The reduction of B vitamins and the higher calories in there fermented feed is why chickens eat less of the feed.
The end result is a imbalanced feed.

Did you have access to a feed comparison analysis? I've been looking but yet to find one.

 

[Molpet]

Yeast can not produce B-12, at all.
Fermentation will actually reduce some B vitamins and reduce some amino acids wile also raising the amount of calories in the finished feed. The reduction of B vitamins and the higher calories in there fermented feed is why chickens eat less of the feed.
The end result is a imbalanced feed.

umm studies show: Starch and fiber tend to decrease during fermentation of cereals (El-Tinay et al. 1979). Although it would not be expected that fermentation would alter the mineral content of the product, the hydrolysis of chelating agents such as phytic acid during fermentation, improves the bioavailability of minerals. Changes in the vitamin content of cereals with fermentation vary according to the fermentation process, and the raw material used in the fermentation. B group vitamins generally show an increase on fermentation (Chavan et al. 1989) (Fig. 5). During the fermentation of maize or kaffircorn in the preparation of kaffir beer, thiamine levels are virtually unchanged, but riboflavin and niacin contents almost double (Steinkraus 1994).

 

[AllenK RGV]

Yeast can not produce B-12, at all.
Fermentation will actually reduce some B vitamins and reduce some amino acids wile also raising the amount of calories in the finished feed. The reduction of B vitamins and the higher calories in there fermented feed is why chickens eat less of the feed.
The end result is a imbalanced feed.

You argument doesn't stack up to a quick google search of Sourdough yeast roduce b12, here's the top boxed thing...:
"Sourdough fermentation, like yogurt fermentation, creates new nutrients—bacteria synthesize vitamins such as B12; meanwhile, yeast boosts lysine, the limiting amino acid in grains, to help make sourdough bread a nearly complete protein."

 

[AllenK RGV]

You argument doesn't stack up to a quick google search of Sourdough yeast roduce b12, here's the top boxed thing...:
"Sourdough fermentation, like yogurt fermentation, creates new nutrients—bacteria synthesize vitamins such as B12; meanwhile, yeast boosts lysine, the limiting amino acid in grains, to help make sourdough bread a nearly complete protein."

edit adding comment fermentation of feed is not completed only by the action of yeast, it has a partner in crime of the Lactobacillus family in the fermentation process. So if we narrowly focus only on one of the organisms involved sure we can make blanket statements and potentially be correct. But going back to B-12 and the liver requirement, does it even matter what naked to the eye critter makes the good stuff?

 

[Titan Farm]

I believe that your all comparing ''Man made" yeast to the wild yeast.

The yeast that your letting do the fermentation is mostly a wild type yeast correct?
If so then your most likely introducing other microbes and some types of wild yeasts that feed on B-vitamins during fermentation.

Studies on feeding a fermented feed to hog show that it can cause a whole host of health problems and the fermentation process can cause a loss of essential nutrients from the feed especially synthetic amino acids.

Now if there is a loss of proteins (the amino acids) and the fat levels stay about the same now your introducing a new problem, fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome.

As for B-vitamins increasing during fermentation, a Bulgarian report indicates that the bacteria within yogurt will use the B-12 for their own growth and the B-12 in kefir decreases in fermentation.

 

[AllenK RGV]

I believe that your all comparing ''Man made" yeast to the wild yeast.

The yeast that your letting do the fermentation is mostly a wild type yeast correct?
If so then your most likely introducing other microbes and some types of wild yeasts that feed on B-vitamins during fermentation.

Studies on feeding a fermented feed to hog show that it can cause a whole host of health problems and the fermentation process can cause a loss of essential nutrients from the feed especially synthetic amino acids.

Now if there is a loss of proteins (the amino acids) and the fat levels stay about the same now your introducing a new problem, fatty liver hemorrhagic syndrome.

As for B-vitamins increasing during fermentation, a Bulgarian report indicates that the bacteria within yogurt will use the B-12 for their own growth and the B-12 in kefir decreases in fermentation.

Well I did a simple comparison comparing raw cabbage to sauerkraut. Now this is an over simplication but yes dietary fiber and vitamin C were decreased, B12 nonexistant in either, protein was increased in fermented as well. Minerals were significantly increased by fermentation. I think this is one of the it didin't make a significant change to the food quality in the one food I did a comparison on. Keep in mind at least in my case animal feed is what they find free ranging plus the fermented feeding and eating my St Augustine grass. They have their dry food on offer as well whenever they like. I am still a fan of fermented for its higher protein content. Also, it would be nice to cite your research mentioned so others can evaluate it and see if it has been peer reviewed among other metrics for evaluating the quality of the study.

edit-your questions, yes of course we are using wild strains of yeast, so each of us will have a different strain of microbes based on location.

 

[Michael Propst]

Keep in mind at least in my case animal feed is what they find free ranging plus the fermented feeding and eating my St Augustine grass. They have their dry food on offer as well whenever they like. I am still a fan of fermented for its higher protein content.

Thanks for the information on how you manage you feed. I allow mine to free range as much as I possibly can and also do offer the dry version of their feed along with the option of the fermented. My biggest question was if I set a bowl of fermented out in the morning and they only eat a little of it by evening what is the safe solution for the leftovers. Just leave in the run? Throw out? Mix back in to another batch? What do you do if they hardly touch the fermented on certain day?