Fertility and Roosters

[Mrs. K]

I am just not following the reasoning on this. How many eggs are you going to hatch? Personally, while all the sperm of one rooster may not be perfectly cleared out, adding the other rooster will get his share in. It is not that you don't want chicks from both roosters. And it is not like the sperm will mix, or kill off the other. It will just be luck who's sperm gets it done. And while you might get considerably more of one rooster's chicks than the other, I don't think you will.

Really I think it would be very upsetting to your hens to do the flipping out of a rooster, and adding another rooster, and that WILL effect fertility. You could just put 3 of each kind hen in with one rooster, 6 hen, 3 BO and 3 barred rocks, and the same with the other rooster. And you would have both crosses done without flipping roosters at all. A lot less commotion.

Perhaps there is something special about the 12 girls, that you want each hen covered by each rooster? But truthfully, it would be a lot less stressful on your birds, and a lot easier to set up, if you just create a breeding pen, with a mixed breed hen flock and single rooster. In 2 days, there will be as many eggs as 12 will lay in one day. Two days is nothing when considering fertility. Anything under 10 days is pretty reasonable, unless they get frozen or something.

Mrs K

 

[peaceisgreen]

^^just using less hens is going to make everything easier

 

[atm21]

I am just not following the reasoning on this. How many eggs are you going to hatch? Personally, while all the sperm of one rooster may not be perfectly cleared out, adding the other rooster will get his share in. It is not that you don't want chicks from both roosters. And it is not like the sperm will mix, or kill off the other. It will just be luck who's sperm gets it done. And while you might get considerably more of one rooster's chicks than the other, I don't think you will.

Really I think it would be very upsetting to your hens to do the flipping out of a rooster, and adding another rooster, and that WILL effect fertility. You could just put 3 of each kind hen in with one rooster, 6 hen, 3 BO and 3 barred rocks, and the same with the other rooster. And you would have both crosses done without flipping roosters at all.  A lot less commotion.

Perhaps there is something special about the 12 girls, that you want each hen covered by each rooster? But truthfully, it would be a lot less stressful on your birds, and a lot easier to set up, if you just create a breeding pen, with a mixed breed hen flock and single rooster. In 2 days, there will be as many eggs as 12 will lay in one day. Two days is nothing when considering fertility. Anything under 10 days is pretty reasonable, unless they get frozen or something.

Mrs K

Hatch about 40 eggs. Yeah i see what you mean about the stress of switching roosters I didn't really think much about that. There is nothing special about the 12 other than their breeds. I just want to make sure I know which roosters are responsible for which fertile egg so when they hatch they can be marked accordingly. I know with barred rocks and blue ameraucanas I can get blue and black chicks and with lavender Orpington and BR i will also get black (as far as I know from what I've read). I'd like to line breed the lavender father back to his black BR crosses to have the lavender genes match up and have some lavender hens in the future so it's important to know which black hens have the potential to carry the lavender gene. Does that make sense?

 

[aart]

Quote: And again....you're going to have to wait 3-4 weeks for sperm to clear.
Breeding for specific crosses is not a fast thing.

 

[Ridgerunner]

the hens are barred rocks and buff Orpingtons. My roosters are blue ameraucana and lavender Orpington.

Let’s discuss these a bit. Your Blue Ameraucana and Lavender Orp are both based on black. Blue and Lavender both are black modifiers. With those hens the Ameraucana splits will have some blue and some black chicks. The Orp splits will all be black.

Before somebody jumps in and chews me out, this assumes the black is Extended Black. It is possible to make a solid black chicken other ways, Birchen with melanizers for example, but you have to assume something. The vast majority of Blue Ameraucana, Lavender Orps, and Barred Rocks are going to be Extended Black so it is a pretty safe assumption, but if you got them from a breeder you might want to confirm this with them. They might add melanizers to reduce red leakage, for example. I’m less sure of the genetics of birds from breeders than I am from hatchery birds. A good breeder can add things to enhance certain traits.

With both roosters the Barred Rock hens will give you black sex links. Males will be barred and the females will be solid, no barring. The Buff Orps are a challenge though. In theory the chicks will be solid black or blue, but theory doesn’t always work in real life. Buff contains modifiers that can have a pronounced effect on black. Instead of solid black, you can get chickens with some pretty big splotches of yellow or orange. One common look is more of a spotted yellow and black. You can still get solid black or blue chickens when they feather out but a lot of leakage of some kind is highly probable.

The problem is that I don’t know what effect buff can have on down color with black. I think the chick is likely to hatch with black down and this “leakage” only shows up, sometimes pretty dramatically, when they feather out. This means that if you hatch the BR and Buff Orp eggs together, the solid black ones might be pullets from the BR or they could be cockerels or pullets from the Orp. I think you will be able to tell which is which when they feather out, but not when they hatch.

The BR, BO, and Lavender Orp are all single combed. The Ameraucana, if he is a true Ameraucana, will be pure for the pea comb. All his offspring will inherit one pea comb gene. The pea comb gene is partially dominant. The way this one works is that if both the genes at that gene pair are pea, you get a pea comb. But if one is pea and one is not-pea, like his offspring with those hens, you get what I call a wonky pea comb. It’s not a full pea, it’s a cross between pea and single. These can take some weird shapes. They might be small and pretty close to a pea, they may be taller and really odd looking. But you can see the pea influence. Maybe not at hatch, but as they grow. By the time they are ready to breed you will know which had the Orp or Ameraucana for a father.

One more thing. A poultry science reproductive specialist that teaches at the University of Arkansas in their poultry science department believes in the last in – first out theory for the rooster’s sperm. From his body language and his choice of words I’m not sure every poultry science specialist agrees with him but h was pretty confident he was right. The last rooster to mate with the hen is going to be the one that fertilizes the egg. I’ve never tested that theory and it takes a certain leap of faith to trust it, but since you can tell which rooster is the father by the comb you might consider it.

With that cabinet incubator you should be able to handle a staggered hatch. I was thinking of a table top incubator. I understand that you have to work with what you have but wouldn’t a second breeding pen make your life simpler.

Good luck!

 

[atm21]

And again....you're going to have to wait 3-4 weeks for sperm to clear.
Breeding for specific crosses is not a fast thing.

Yes I agree it's not fast lol it'll be smarter to split them into 2 groups I think. Everyone is making great points that it'll be a hassle to try and breed each hen to separate roosters.

 

[atm21]

the hens are barred rocks and buff Orpingtons. My roosters are blue ameraucana and lavender Orpington.

Let’s discuss these a bit. Your Blue Ameraucana and Lavender Orp are both based on black. Blue and Lavender both are black modifiers. With those hens the Ameraucana splits will have some blue and some black chicks. The Orp splits will all be black.

Before somebody jumps in and chews me out, this assumes the black is Extended Black. It is possible to make a solid black chicken other ways, Birchen with melanizers for example, but you have to assume something. The vast majority of Blue Ameraucana, Lavender Orps, and Barred Rocks are going to be Extended Black so it is a pretty safe assumption, but if you got them from a breeder you might want to confirm this with them. They might add melanizers to reduce red leakage, for example. I’m less sure of the genetics of birds from breeders than I am from hatchery birds. A good breeder can add things to enhance certain traits.

With both roosters the Barred Rock hens will give you black sex links. Males will be barred and the females will be solid, no barring. The Buff Orps are a challenge though. In theory the chicks will be solid black or blue, but theory doesn’t always work in real life. Buff contains modifiers that can have a pronounced effect on black. Instead of solid black, you can get chickens with some pretty big splotches of yellow or orange. One common look is more of a spotted yellow and black. You can still get solid black or blue chickens when they feather out but a lot of leakage of some kind is highly probable.

The problem is that I don’t know what effect buff can have on down color with black. I think the chick is likely to hatch with black down and this “leakage” only shows up, sometimes pretty dramatically, when they feather out. This means that if you hatch the BR and Buff Orp eggs together, the solid black ones might be pullets from the BR or they could be cockerels or pullets from the Orp. I think you will be able to tell which is which when they feather out, but not when they hatch.

The BR, BO, and Lavender Orp are all single combed. The Ameraucana, if he is a true Ameraucana, will be pure for the pea comb. All his offspring will inherit one pea comb gene. The pea comb gene is partially dominant. The way this one works is that if both the genes at that gene pair are pea, you get a pea comb. But if one is pea and one is not-pea, like his offspring with those hens, you get what I call a wonky pea comb. It’s not a full pea, it’s a cross between pea and single. These can take some weird shapes. They might be small and pretty close to a pea, they may be taller and really odd looking. But you can see the pea influence. Maybe not at hatch, but as they grow. By the time they are ready to breed you will know which had the Orp or Ameraucana for a father.

One more thing. A poultry science reproductive specialist that teaches at the University of Arkansas in their poultry science department believes in the last in – first out theory for the rooster’s sperm. From his body language and his choice of words I’m not sure every poultry science specialist agrees with him but h was pretty confident he was right. The last rooster to mate with the hen is going to be the one that fertilizes the egg. I’ve never tested that theory and it takes a certain leap of faith to trust it, but since you can tell which rooster is the father by the comb you might consider it.

With that cabinet incubator you should be able to handle a staggered hatch. I was thinking of a table top incubator. I understand that you have to work with what you have but wouldn’t a second breeding pen make your life simpler.

Good luck!

Thank you so much!!! This is great information! Yes I agree a second breeding pen would be more helpful I'll probably have to do that I have some time I don't want to hatch chicks till about June or July just trying to think it all out and plan. So you said I should be able to tell apart the the chicks between BO and BR no matter who the father is once they mature? So as long as I band them according to rooster it shouldn't be hard to tell between the BR chicks and the BO chicks? I need to post a pic of my blue Ameraucana rooster he has the right markings i believe but he may have that wonky comb you mentioned so I'm not sure I got him from Meyer hatchery.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If you got him from a hatchery like Meyer he is not Ameraucana but is an EE. You cannot count on him being pure for the pea comb so that won’t work. That’s especially true if his comb is not a real pea comb. All that about using the comb to tell which rooster is the father does not work.

Since that is an EE rooster and not pure Ameraucana, I’m no longer sure you will be able to tell for sure which chicks came from which hen. I think you probably will be able to but since the EE is a mix I don’t know what other genetics might be hiding under that blue. I’m just not sure any more. You will know that any blue chicks came from him, but you won’t know which black chicks came from him and the lavender. And that’s what you want to know, which black chicks have lavender.

So you can pretty much ignore everything I wrote in that post. That rooster being an EE changes everything. Sorry.

 

[atm21]

If you got him from a hatchery like Meyer he is not Ameraucana but is an EE. You cannot count on him being pure for the pea comb so that won’t work. That’s especially true if his comb is not a real pea comb. All that about using the comb to tell which rooster is the father does not work.

Since that is an EE rooster and not pure Ameraucana, I’m no longer sure you will be able to tell for sure which chicks came from which hen. I think you probably will be able to but since the EE is a mix I don’t know what other genetics might be hiding under that blue. I’m just not sure any more. You will know that any blue chicks came from him, but you won’t know which black chicks came from him and the lavender. And that’s what you want to know, which black chicks have lavender.

So you can pretty much ignore everything I wrote in that post. That rooster being an EE changes everything. Sorry.

That's ok. I'll just have to make sure I separate the eggs and band them when they are born based on the father. I'm just annoyed that hatcheries claim a chicken is a certain breed but it's not. Hopefully he will still throw some blue chicks then.

 

[aart]

Quote: Actually I believe Meyers does have true Am's.
One of the few(only?) that doesn't use CYA verbiage in their descriptions...and advertises Easter Eggers as Easter Eggers not Am's.
Their Blue Am description also includes a reasonable caveat about blue genetics not always breeding true.
https://www.meyerhatchery.com/productinfo.a5w?prodID=BAMS