Fertility/Egg Shape/Bielefelders

[lastco]

@I D Farms I think I'm getting a better idea of what to expect. Another member was kind enough to direct me to two general breed discussion threads on Bielefelders. I read one, which was fairly short, and I'm currently on page 208 of 528 of the other. Lol. I'll add them to the end of this post for you.

I'll try to summarize what I read from the start. When Greenfire Farms first imported the breed (2011 line), they were charging something like $1000 per pair. Some truly amazing and adventurous people got chicks and raised them. Those people began selling chicks and hatching eggs once their birds matured. Many breeders were shipping eggs all over the country, and shipping will obviously impact hatch rates. Other people were fortunate enough to live within driving distance of breeders, but that did not always lead to better hatch rates. Egg handling practices are a factor, always, but shipping could not be blamed for those low rates. People have still been buying from Greenfire since then too, they've imported more lines, and thank goodness for the price reduction!

After a couple of years, more folks had Bielefelders (From the 2011 and 2013 lines). More breeders were selling them. That's when I really started paying attention to the long thread, because a lot of those people were still having problems. Now that it was easier to get Bielefelders, enthusiasts were getting in on the action and trying to make more for themselves. I found several breeders and backyard enthusiasts complaining about fertility issues regarding their own birds. I'm only up to September 2015 in the thread, so I can't say how widespread this problem is currently

One possible factor that several breeders noted, was that their hens had super fluffy feathers around the vent. Trimming those feathers was their solution, but I can't speak to the success of that. I'm either not far enough in, or no one mentioned if it actually worked or not. Personally, I think there's more to it. There are just too many people talking about it for it to be a fluffy butt problem. Does one hen have a fluffier butt than all of her flockmates? This often? Anything is possible, I suppose.

Today I talked to a friend , that also raises Biels, to ask about her fertility rate. She got her birds from a breeder that acquired their stock directly from Greenfire. She's had the same problems. Not all of her eggs are infertile, but enough to notice. She, along with many of the other breeders that have mentioned this, have had other breeds. Infertile eggs happen, but this is far more than usual.

I really hate to be overly wordy, but I'm trying to save anyone interested at least 200+ pages of reading! About the membrane issue, I'm not sure. I do know, that of the eggs that were fertile and viable at lockdown, I lost a couple with each hatch. They had gone so far as to make an external pip, and then quit. I don't like to get hands on, but I will help a chick that's struggling over time. These didn't last long enough after pip for me to intervene. They weren't shrink wrapped or anything like that. My friend experienced the same thing and it was mentioned a lot on the thread too. I'm sure this is not an uncommon hatching issue, maybe even more common with some breeds. However, along with the fertility concerns, it's happening enough with this breed for people to mention. They have a nice thick shell and the membranes do seem thicker than some of the other breeds I've hatched, but the ones that did hatch popped out without drama.

I really hope your new chicks work out. I've never had such pleasant juvenile birds of any sort. I can hardly wait to see if this stuff happens with them.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/a-bielefelder-thread.727364/

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/chicken-breed-focus-bielefelder.1069851/

 

[I D Farms]

Thanks for your reply, lastco. I had read through the long thread last year when I first started with Bielefelders, but had forgotten all that was in it, and a search hadn't led me anywhere.

I agree with all you said. I know that when my original Bieles started laying last fall, we monitored the fertility closely, and all was well. Since none of our eggs hatched from the set last month, I'm starting to watch the eggs more closely as we crack them for breakfast . I'd still like to be able to hatch some Bieles, selecting for egg size, fertility (duh), and I hope that this new batch of fuzzy butts will have a thinner membrane as well. But we're still months away from getting anything out of these chicks.

The breed has a lot going for it, so we have to find out a way to deal with these issues.

Dennis

 

[lastco]

I have a long road ahead as well, especially given the rate of maturity. I've read several more pages since my last post. The general consensus hasn't changed.

I did find that some people had improved fertility after trimming the feathers, but this is not something I'm inclined to do. If some of my birds don't manage to breed naturally, then they're doing me a favor in the long run. It would suck, but they would still be valued for laying.

There seems to be some philosophical debate about that, but I'm among the camp that would rather continue a line of birds that can handle their own "business" without intervention. As long as some eggs are fertile, it would be manageable, it just might take longer.

Let me know how those breakfast fertility appraisals go! I do the same thing with my eggs. If you are cracking them open anyway, why not look! Lol! It still boggles my mind that more people don't do this. I bought my Biel eggs, so I had to wait until they didn't hatch to check them. The breeder I bought from incubates their own eggs and sells chicks. They hadn't been having problems either, as far as I know (not that I expect full disclosure). Or maybe the problems just weren't as drastic initially, and they suspected another reason for their hatch rates. I'm not even sure they check the fertility of their undeveloped eggs.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I'm mainly repeating what others have said, but maybe a slight twist.

-Is egg shape specific to each hen (like a fingerprint)? I know many variables can effect size/shape but, under normal laying conditions and health, is this something you've noticed?

Yes, you can get glitches, but size and shade for brown or green eggs are usually pretty consistent. As the hen gets later in her laying cycle the shade of the egg can lighten, but that is a gradual thing.

-If these eggs were found to be from specific hens, is it likely that they just aren't being covered by the rooster? I don't think this particular breeder has an unreasonable number of hens with their rooster, but perhaps he's a bit lazy or has favorites?

I have noticed in some hatches that eggs from certain hens did not hatch while eggs from a different hen had a great hatch rate. It could be the rooster not covering her or something with the hen. It's not always the rooster. On some hatches I've noticed that the unhatched eggs were from different hens and that each of those hens had eggs that did hatch. I have had hens that their eggs never hatched no matter how many times I tried. For an egg to hatch the hen has to put it together with everything it needs. I think there was just something wrong with a few of those hens in how they put the eggs together. I've hatched twice so far this year, it's pretty well guaranteed that the small round light blue eggs from a certain hen will be clear.

How they are stored and handled can affect clears. Clears are not always a fertility issue. The embryo is alive in a fertile egg but if the egg gets too hot, too cold, is stored too long, or handled roughly they may never start to develop. I once got a horrible hatch rate, practically all clears, when I brought some eggs home over a very rough gravel road. I shook them up too much on the ride home.

How many days did that breeder collect eggs for you from how many different hens? Was it even possible that all the eggs came from the same hen?

 

[lastco]

@Ridgerunner Great feedback. Most of my egg experience up until now, was with laying hens for eating eggs. As long as they were normal and tasted good, I had no worries. I have silkies for breeding, but with a tiny flock, I could easily tell who laid what. I do know that my silkie roo has a favorite hen, but he does manage to cover everyone. No fertility drama with them! All my other experience has been with hatching eggs of various breeds, sourced locally. Even then, patterns become apparent, which is what peaked my curiosity.

I agree completely with your comments regarding egg handling. SO MANY VARIABLES!!!! I can't say with any certainty how long the eggs were collected. I was told they were all from the past 7 days. They have several breeds, so a small flock of each. Maybe something like 6-8 hens. Multiple eggs from each seems likely, since I incubated 37 eggs total. They are really sweet people, so I don't think they would intentionally mislead me. I think some people are just more stringent in their breeding practices. I've read tons of accounts of people on BYC that have dealt with the worst of the worst of breeders, but I don't think that's the case for me.....yet. Lol.

I crack open any egg that doesn't hatch. I am so very nosy! We homeschool, so I like to torture my kids. I've never had this number of clear eggs, but I did have some from another breed that were fertile but didn't develop. They were older eggs that I was given in addition to the ones I purchased, just to give them a shot. Some did hatch, but other fertile eggs didn't. No big deal, as I knew it was a gamble.

These Biel eggs are definitely infertile. Just a wee white blastodisc. It was a very shocking egg cracking party. I really didn't expect it.