Flock is sick again - advice needed

[ND]

BlaBauve- I totally understand where you're coming from and the decision you're trying to make. Exactly!

I think it's a personal decision about how to deal with it. Some people would automatically cull-- never, ever treat anything respiratory.
Some people 'live with it' and deal with it...and may (or may not) cull birds that don't recover well on their own, etc.

recentner is right--- it's estimated that upwards of 90% of backyard flocks are MG positive. I've spoken with some USDA poultry "specialists" (vets) about it (county extension gave me a toll free number for the state I'm in) and it's an overwhelming problem/disease. (as are some others) A great number of the sampled flocks in their testing, that were positive, were completely healthy...owners had no clue...and had no idea when or how the birds were infected. It's said if you take live birds on and off your property, you'll most likely encounter MG, or other things-- additionally. The safest way to build a 'clean flock' is from tested/certified clean HATCHING eggs.... buying day old chicks from certified clean stock would be your next safest. (but many of the most popular hatcheries do NOT test for MG in their breeder flocks) Then-- you must practice very good bio-security. This includes and all in-all out policy with a 'rest period' between flocks for things in the environment to die off. You must take care not to 'track it home'... from poultry shows, swap meets (just don't go to those!) and even the feed store-- technically, if you were at the feed store with someone else that was "dropping" the virus from their shoes/clothing after caring for their flock...and you tracked it straight home and used the same shoes/clothing to carry the feed to the birds-- that could track it in and infect them. Maybe that's not the easiest mode of transfer-- maybe that's a lower risk of contamination, but it IS still a risk.

THEN, we have WILD BIRDS. Wild birds can be carriers... drop poop among your birds environment...and your now clean flock is sick...again.

(one of the preventative ways for bio-security of MG and other illnesses in commercial poultry businesses is entirely enclosed housing, where no wildlife/birds can cross contaminate) Most people with backyard flocks don't wish to keep their birds confined and enclosed 24/7 like the commercial poultry industry does.


That said, to be a responsible BREEDER, or to sell hatching eggs, you should make every attempt to have a disease free flock. I'd still lay odds that fewer of them are totally free from any carrier diseases, they're just not known about.

I won't let a live bird leave my property for any reason. Well, maybe to a vet if needed...but you know what I mean. I won't sell birds and potentially infect someone's clean flock. I don't have any interest in selling hatching eggs. I don't show and don't ever plan to... it's just not my cup of tea. Basically, my birds are for our egg eating and entertainment purposes. (pets) Let's face it, mostly entertainment purposes--- it'd be FAR cheaper to just BUY eggs, even from someone else with a backyard flock.


SO, after digesting all the statistics, and the likelihood of STILL not ultimately ending up with a 'clean flock' if I culled every last one of them... I decided to NOT cull just for the sake of starting over. But, like I said, I won't treat sickly birds that can't handle it again and again. But if they can "recover", live and act healthy...lay eggs and make us laugh... great, they can stay! I think SO many backyard birds ARE carriers... and no one is the wiser.


I don't have any problems with eating the eggs after any medication withdrawal period. I mean, *I* have taken antibiotics many times over the course of my life and don't think I'm forever tainted. Granted, no one is eating me... lol... but I'm sure the doses of meds I consumed while sick (and needed them) were in concentrations thousands of times higher than I'd ingest even if I ate the eggs WHILE the birds were ON antibiotics....

And... commercial poultry feed has meds mixed in them 24/7 to "manage" and reduce loss in their flocks. Even eggs and birds going straight to human consumption. Trust me when I say that just about ANY backyard flock, no matter what they're fed or medicated with...is healthier than the vast majority of commercial birds. (I actually owned (co-owned/marriage) a poultry farm 20+ years ago...with 160K layers... then we converted to broilers for several years. Having a backyard flock is different...but you still get your eyes REALLY opened in those businesses.)


ANYWAY-- I'm really not trying to sway you one way or another, just telling you to do your research! How heartbreaking would it be to cull your flock...then find yourself in the same situation with another flock? Given the prevalence, that was the decision maker for me, I guess.

 

[UrbanChick101]

Quote:
Thank you for help in your knowledge of the CRD stuff. I am a bit confused, on this post you stated you have been involved with poulty for 20+ years, and on the bumblefoot thread, I just came across of yours it says you are totally new to chickens... and your rooster is going to go after you for malpractice???? Oh, the dillemas that come upon us, when a few of us are just trying to do what is best for our backyard flocks.

 

[ND]

UrbanChicken101-- I can see where those statements are conflicting!

Yes, I did help run/own a poultry farm...first egg layers then broilers... but you don't really *do chickens* when you do that.... Boy, that sounds stupid and contradictory, but seriously, other than picking up dead birds, you don't touch the chickens. We were contracted by Moark for our egg production-- and Moark was 100% responsible for the "care" of the birds... what they were fed, what was in that feed, if/when we forced a molt (usually just once before birds were sent for processing) to increase the production again. Moark delivered all the feed(s) to the silos, the feed system was automated via a conveyor belt system (as were the egg gathering) and basically our job was to maintain equipment to run properly and to gather eggs twice daily-- all automated. (eggs rolled out onto a belt in front of cages (5-6 birds in a cage) and then converged with a main conveyor belt, up to the packer, which stamped them into flats, and we had to manually pick up the flats and stack them on huge racks and roll to the cooler. Aside from the occasional 'egg dam' that would clog the belts and cause a mess...or the packer going berserk now and then and getting jammed or smashing eggs-- we didn't do much but pick up the final product after getting put in the flats. We didn't even handle birds upon delivery or removal-- it was all Moark.

It was dirty, dirty, dirty... I mean, the way the 'pits' are (poop pits under the layered rows of cages) always stunk so bad--- it was a liquid pit arrangement (and we all know that WET litter stinks!), but liquid litter is what works best (or did in those houses), because it could be pumped/augured out on a schedule and then spread on the land. The worst was when/if an augur would break.... someone (my x-husband) would have to climb INTO said liquid pit and fix it. The smell doesn't leave your body for days, no matter WHAT you do, let me tell ya! (ugh!) Aside from that, it's very dusty with tons of tiny feather dandy and feathers stuck and concreted to everything. When you have 80,000+ birds in one poultry house, you can imagine the mess...

Anyway-- bumblefoot-- well, if any of them had it, we wouldn't have known. Never heard of it. The birds literally weren't touched other than walking down each isle several times a day looking for any casualties or such. We often had birds hang themselves... I remember thinking a bird has to be really stupid to be able to hang themselves...but it happened a LOT. They'd stick their head up thru one hole in the cage, and bring it down thru another...and we'd find them hung that way.


When we built two more houses and converted our first two and went to raising broilers, it wasn't much different. I often went down there when new chicks arrived... nothing like seeing 100,000 yellow chicks in those huge houses....you had to be careful not to step on them, because I assume they'd "imprint" on you in a way, and would follow right at your feet in huge numbers. You never picked up your feet to walk...only shuffled. But otherwise, it was the same way... you walked the houses several times a day, looking for any dead birds to pick up, and checked equipment...with the broilers you had to make sure the temp was regulating correcting (all automated, including it raising and lowering the 'windows' on the houses for more or less circulation depending on temp), you had to obviously make sure that the feed was running and not clogged in a line somewhere...waterers weren't dripping/flooding, etc....but aside from picking up dead birds--- well, that was the extent of our 'bird' care, the company that we contracted with (Tyson at that time) was responsible.

We would get a report of our flocks when they were sent for processing-- average weight, etc.... it'd list what diseases (and percentage of the birds affected) were found upon processing/testing. What percentage was human food grade, what was another grade, what was total loss, etc. We were paid based on those numbers (and some ratio that included feed conversion in it)-- but we didn't have much control of those numbers, either-- just notifying the contracting company if we DID see any obvious problems within a house. (we did have a complete loss with one flock rotation-- total mortality-- and I don't remember what it was that wiped them out, but remember that it wasn't "our fault", just a "bad batch", if you know what I mean--I'm assuming now that they were likely infected with whatever it was by the contractor company-- that was the only way something could've gotten "tracked" to our farm--but if the feed trucks or something had picked up infected litter or whatever before delivering to us, that'd be enough to do it)

When we had egg layers, I helped gather eggs twice a day, but when we went to broilers, there wasn't much for me to do... I only would go down there to see new chicks really.



It took me over 20 years to even CONSIDER having chickens as pets after that-- I didn't think I'd ever want to see a chicken again!

Having them as pets is completely different... treating them, figuring out what is or isn't wrong with them... figuring out what's best to feed them and what's not... that's ALL new. In the commercial side of it, shoot, I didn't even know what EGG BOUND was... if any of those hens were ever egg bound, she either got it worked out herself, or died... and we'd just find it dead on one of our rounds. There isn't any nursing of injuries or afflictions, petting or feeding treats... shoot, I didn't even realize chickens could be so entertaining and 'pet like'--- they were stupid, stinky birds that routinely hung themselves back then...

So-- yes, I had involvement in the commercial poultry side of things...but this is the first time I've had any experience WITH chickens, if you know what I mean by that now...

It certainly sounds conflicting...but the commercial aspect is absolutely NOTHING like having a backyard flock at all!


And still haven't made much progress on my Roos bumblefoot... trying to decide what to try next.

 

[eustacma]

what ever they have dont eat the eggs
I have learned to throw them deep into the woods for the creepy critters
remove everything from the coop the lives and bleach it down bowls and waterers
there are red bugs and flys that carrie GERMS
there are fly and bug powders safe for them to fluff in to help ward other germs
Bleach the hell out everything make sure the is no MOLD
give it a couple of egg lays to get it all out of there system
good luck to you
my was near death and i saved her with electrolites and dropper to have a king fisher or coon get her
keep everything clean and rinse down droppings to ward off flys

 

[BLaBauve]

Have you heard anything about the MG vaccine? I've started a new thread about it in hopes to get more feedback. I'm going to assume it wouldn't help my already infected flock, but eventually I'd like to add a few chicks to my flock, maybe they would benefit from the vaccine?

I'm still waiting my results, hopefully tomorrow.

Also, I bought some Baytril from my vet and will start it as soon as I get the results. I'm not sure how far down the chickens mouth to put the syringe, I don't want to aspirate them . . .

 

[ND]

Honestly, I haven't "figured out" the vaccines yet... I've been reading, but from what I gather SO far, the vaccines don't prevent the vaccinated birds from getting it, or even being carriers, but reduce the symptoms and lesson the risk of mortality. I also found one article somewhere that said they'd need to be repeated yearly (?) after the initial does (and second booster dose several weeks later) Most of it seemed more relevant to commercial layers...reducing the 'down time' that affects egg production and such. A lot of the vaccine *blurbs* describe managing the illness rather than PREVENTING it, too.


As far as giving oral doses... get the smallest syringe you can easily handle...nothing too big, especially if you have smaller pullets.
Dosing is easiest at night, plucked off the roost-- they're already 'half dead to the world'.
I wrap snugly in a towel to contain the bird, with head sticking out. I find it best if I can set them on something about waist height, and I position them so they are facing away from me, kinda in the crook of my arm, so I can kinda hold them with my arm, and use that hand to gently hold their head while trying to manipulate their beak open.
If you are in a well lighted area, or have someone help you, if you can manage to get their beak open and held wide open (not an easy task!), if you look down their throat, at the very back of their tongue is a hole/opening that goes to their lungs. If/when you find these landmarks, it's much easier to know how to dose them.
You'll get the syringe in their mouths... WAY back to the back of their throats, and even go DOWN their throats some-- it won't hurt them...and generally, once you get back there, they stop struggling/tossing their head and hold pretty still, head pointing up. You can then push the plunger-- bird shouldn't cough, gurgle, etc-- it'll go straight to the crop.
Some people will attach a small tube... like hosing for the airline of an aquarium, and use that to thread down their throats past their trachea...but a small syringe works too.
Doing it this way, rather than just trying to get it inside their beaks, keeps them from shaking the dose out, and from inhaling it.

 

[BLaBauve]

So how do I know I'm not going down the wrong pipe? Sorry, I'm just really nervous I'll do this wrong! We will not have much light, but I will have someone to hold the bird for me. Just push the syringe as far back as I can, and that's the right pipe??

I am contacting the vets I've been talking to about the vaccines, if it lessens the symptoms it may be worth it for me.

 

[ND]

The hole for the trachea is pretty small... if you can get a glimpse of it, it's looks like a little tube toward the front of the throat...that narrows at the opening (looks as if it can constrict and close off, which I'm sure it does when they drink/swallow on their own) It's MUCH smaller than the esophagus that is kinda lines the front of. (like down the front of the chest) If you go all the way back to the back of the mouth, the bird will most likely easily tip it's head up (almost like it's swallowing the syringe) and then give the dose, you'll miss the trachea. It's not hard, IMO, to miss the trachea...and IMO, getting it INTO the trachea-- like going down the 'wrong pipe'-- would be kinda hard to do on accident with a syringe. I push the syringe down into their throat a bit just so I know I'm not pushing the dose out right on top of the trachea where they'd inhale it. If you can manage to get one that'll let you SEE down it's throat (and older hen I had let me check things out...) you'll see it and probably feel more comfortable about giving the dose. But they have to basically have their beak held open, looking straight up, with you peering down to see it. If they don't have their neck extended, you may not see it at all.

Maybe I'll try to find a picture... wonder if there are any out there floating around? At least a diagram... It's not so much a 'fork' of the two passage ways, but a tube within a tube just about. But the trachea is much smaller than where you'll be inserting the syringe.

The hardest part for me is getting it INTO their mouths. Some shake their heads, bob their heads, pull away... clamp their beaks shut. Nearly every one of them stopped fighting it once I got to the back of their throat. I was more scared about not breaking their necks TRYING to get their beaks open!

I'd only dose the ones that are acting like they might have a secondary infection going on... if their MG symptoms are very mild, they'll have to run the course of the illness for a few weeks. Hacking, coughing, discharge, 'honking'... raspy breathing... those might warrant meds. A dry sneeze? Probably not right now.


Wish there was a way to split the vaccine--- I'd split some with ya! (if it really works!) I'd like some...but certainly don't need 1000 doses...

 

[BLaBauve]

Update - the test results were negative. He did however say that because I gave them Tylan that it could be a false negative. I gave them Tylan over 3 weeks ago, it seems odd that it would still cause a false negative.

The results were somewhat frustrating, because I still don't know what they have! I haven't started the Baytril yet, but the Poultry Lab Doctor is still advising me to use it. I just keep hoping they'll beat this on their own. So far no one seems any worse, maybe even better. I'm off all day tomorrow and will be able to monitor them better.

 

[ND]

Hmmm, well, that's frustrating! You don't really know if they were/are truly negative or just...bad results because of meds? Did the vet recommend retesting at another time? (like some time after any meds have been given?) Or are you to just assume they ARE negative...? Do you know what they tested for? (several things or just MG?)
I'd be driven mad by those results! lol Glad they were negative...but at the same time, frustrated that I still had this illness moving thru the flock with no answers to what it is...

I suppose if you decide to give the baytril... you could try it for 3 days. It seems that if any given med is going to help (or not), it's apparent in 3 days... if not sooner. If there's no significant change in 3 days... it's usually not something that's being helped by the medication. If there is improvement, do be sure you do the entire course of it... but there's no sense in continuing the meds if there's no change by the 3rd full day of doses.

I kinda lean towards the *not* medicating them IF they're eating, drinking, and their activity is fine and normal. You know, if there's just a sneeze going on.
I'd medicate if they coughed/rattled, were raspy, or were acting depressed or lethargic... something more than just the sneezing telling me I needed to intervene.