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Maybe somebody already asked this but which do ya use cats or dogs?
Maybe somebody already asked this but which do ya use cats or dogs?
Frontline ???
- Thread starter doxies1
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I always buy the frontline plus for the dogs i get the 132 lb dose 6 pk from revival animal heathcare site for 75.00 and that covers all my small dogs for way over a year plus the 2 labs. so seems like a breeze to put a drop or two per chicken . Thanks for the heads up I'm going to give it a try if i happen to get a problem with the fleas/mites/lice. Sandy
Last time I suggested Frontline for chickens for lice on here I got jumped.
I will say that it worked WELL for us when needed (when Seven dust and permithrin poultry spray did NOT work) but I don't routinely apply it to them just for "repellent" either, only as-needed pea sized drop on the skin with a syringe ---- I would venture that I probably eat more of it by touching my indoor dogs/cats than from eating eggs from the hens.
I will say that it worked WELL for us when needed (when Seven dust and permithrin poultry spray did NOT work) but I don't routinely apply it to them just for "repellent" either, only as-needed pea sized drop on the skin with a syringe ---- I would venture that I probably eat more of it by touching my indoor dogs/cats than from eating eggs from the hens.
Ok let me see if i'm gathering info correctly here
You can use typical frontline for dogs/cats on chickens for lice and mite control correct? Do you apply monthy as you do the cat/dog or does it stay effective longer on them? How would something topical, spread via oil glands/secretions on the dermis effect the possibility of consumption of their eggs? Meat i can understand as it does penetrate the dermis to a degree. But something that is routinely produced within the chiken?? Will it really effect it's consumability?
You can use typical frontline for dogs/cats on chickens for lice and mite control correct? Do you apply monthy as you do the cat/dog or does it stay effective longer on them? How would something topical, spread via oil glands/secretions on the dermis effect the possibility of consumption of their eggs? Meat i can understand as it does penetrate the dermis to a degree. But something that is routinely produced within the chiken?? Will it really effect it's consumability?
Last September I was picking up some bantams from a breeder's home and I couldn't believe my eyes as before we loaded the birds up he put a drop or 2 of Frontline on each bird. I as well had the same initial questions like as was this Frontline the same as the cat and dog kind and it was. There are some poultry suppliers who advertize Frontline; but I too cannot find any information from the manufactures about the use of the products on poultry. It is odd that a friend uses Ivermectin for his chickens. I don't know. I guess I am staying a bit old school and safe by using my can of Permethrin.
It's not on the manufacturer's site because they don't make a poultry version, so using it on your birds is an off-label use. Therefore effectiveness is anecdotal and doses are experimental. If you're using it -- You're winging it.
Anyway, here's an update. I used two drops on the head of each of my polish hens on 5/20. It was effective at killing mites and lasted about a month. There was no change in behavior of the hens and no change in egg production. I'm going to dose them again today.
Like the other poster here, I bet I've eaten more Fipronil by petting dogs than from eating eggs. I'd still rather eat eggs from a hen that's had two drops of Fipronil than eggs that have been coated in some Sevin dust from the nest box, but that's just me and my devil[ed-egg]-may-care attitude. (Oh dear, it must be one of those days.)
BTW what kind: I'm using dog. Re: Buying what size: It's all the same product, so buying the larger dog sized vials is more cost effective. I just open the vial and decant it into a dropper bottle.
Peigi
Anyway, here's an update. I used two drops on the head of each of my polish hens on 5/20. It was effective at killing mites and lasted about a month. There was no change in behavior of the hens and no change in egg production. I'm going to dose them again today.
Like the other poster here, I bet I've eaten more Fipronil by petting dogs than from eating eggs. I'd still rather eat eggs from a hen that's had two drops of Fipronil than eggs that have been coated in some Sevin dust from the nest box, but that's just me and my devil[ed-egg]-may-care attitude. (Oh dear, it must be one of those days.)
BTW what kind: I'm using dog. Re: Buying what size: It's all the same product, so buying the larger dog sized vials is more cost effective. I just open the vial and decant it into a dropper bottle.
Peigi
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- Dec 6, 2009
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Hi All - I'm chiming in here because I have been wondering about using Frontline for my chix fleas (4 layers), that have spread throughout the garden and are now into the house. Its making the chix unhappy, and me as well, so in addition to treating the garden and house (we don't have other pets), I'm also going to go to the source and take care of the chix with Frontline.
But first, I felt like I had to do some research. I'm a scientist, so this might get a little technical, but you can jump to the end if you want. As mentioned before, there is low mammal toxicity from Fipronil (see fact sheet at: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ). So, some calculations to ask the question: What if I ATE the entire dose of fipronil I was giving to my chickens every month, how much would that be, and how would it compare to "allowable" doses.
Assumptions:
4 chickens
1 drop per chicken per month
1 drop = 0.05 mL (this is the standard conversion)
density of Frontline plus = 1 g/mL - i.e. that of water
Frontline Plus is 9.8% by weight Fipronil.
So:
1 drop per chicken per month x 4 chickens = 4 drops per mongh
4 drops per month x 0.05 mL per drop = 0.2 mL frontline plus per month
0.2 mL frontline plus per month x 1 g/mL = 0.2 g frontline plus per month
0.2 g frontline plus per month x 9.8% fipronil by weight in frontline plus = 0.0196 ~ 0.02 g fipronil per month = 20 mg fipronil per month.
Per the factsheet linked above, the chronic reference dose (RfD) for fipronil is 0.0002 mg/kg/day for humans - this is 100 x less than the NOAEL (No Observable Adverse Affects Level) for rats.
I weigh ~100 kg and one month = 30 days, so:
0.0002 mg/kg/day x 100 kg x 30 days/month = 0.6 mg per month as the chronic reference dose for me.
So, IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil I was dropping on chickens I would be eating ~ 20 mg fipronil per month. The chronic reference dose is 0.6 mg per month for me, so IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil, I would be eating about (20/0.6
33 times the reference dose. While higher than the reference dose, this is still about 1/3 of the NOAEL.
Based on this, I wouldn't feel comfortable eating all of the Frontline, and DO NOT suggest anyone drink the stuff, but since I'm not eating the whole chicken (and therefore not all of the fipronil) do I feel comfortable eating the eggs?
So, lets assume (though this doesn't seem to be the case as noted below) that when I put the fipronil on a chicken, it evenly distributes throughout the entire chicken, even into the egg she is just about to lay:
Assumptions:
1 chicken = 4.5 lbs which is around 2 kg
1 egg ~ 60 g ( http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mass_of_a_chicken_egg )
To calculate the concentration of Fipronil in the chicken:
1 drop = 0.005 g fipronil
0.005g fipronil divided by the mass of the chicken (2 kg) = 2.5 x 10^-6 g fipronil per gram chicken =2.5 ppm by mass fipronil for my chicken.
So, using my assumption that the egg has the same concentration of fipronil as the chicken, a 60-g egg has 60 g x 2.5 x 10^-6 = 0.15 mg fipronil
My chicken lays ~ 20 eggs/month so that's 20 eggs/month x 0.15 mg fipronil/egg = 3 mg fipronil per month if I eat every single egg my chicken lays.
This is still 5 times the reference dose of 0.6 mg/month for me, but this is assuming that 1) the fipronil partitions evenly into all parts of the chicken and 2) the fipronil concentration is the same all month (it isn't because it goes away via loss of poop, skin, feathers, etc). If I use all of the same assumptions, but assume that fipronil goes down throughout the month (either linearly to concentration of 0 at 30 days or exponentially using the whole-blood half-life given in the linked fact sheet ~7 days, calculations not shown, but I can share with the interested), my total fipronil consumption will be either 1.5 mg/month or 1.2 mg/month, meaning just 2 or 3 times the reference dose, which, remember is 100 times LESS than the NOAEL.
Using the exponential model, if I withhold eggs for 2 days, I'm down to 0.82 mg/month and after 5 days withdrawal, I am at 0.6 mg/month, which is the reference dose.
So, assuming that I EAT ALL OF THE EGGS for a chicken for a month and THE CONCENTRATION OF FIPRONIL IN THE EGGS IS THE SAME AS THE ENTIRE CHICKEN - I am just about at the reference dose, especially if I withdraw the eggs for a few days.
Getting more realistic, the concentration in the eggs is likely not the same as the whole chicken. If the concentration in the eggs was 1/2 of the entire chicken, then assuming you ate all of the eggs (in the exponential model) you'd be right at 0.6 mg/month, my reference dose. If it is 1/10th of the entire chicken, you'd be about 5x below the reference dose (0.012 mg/month).
I could find no data on the partitioning of fipronil into eggs from the chicken, but if what the manufacturer says about the fact that fipronil stays mostly in the skin (a fact backed up by: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ) then the 1/10th partitioning into an egg seems extremely conservative (i.e., I'd guess it was lower)
My conclusion: even if I were to eat all of my chicken's eggs in a month, I would be well below the reference dose. By the way, the chronic reference dose is the the United States Environmental Protection Agency's maximum acceptable oral dose of a toxic substance under chronic exposure ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_dose )
In future work - maybe I'll measure the amount of Fipronil in my chickens' eggs....
Hope this was helpful. It puts my own mind at ease. Lots of people made other excellent points (about alternatives etc.)
-Greg
But first, I felt like I had to do some research. I'm a scientist, so this might get a little technical, but you can jump to the end if you want. As mentioned before, there is low mammal toxicity from Fipronil (see fact sheet at: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ). So, some calculations to ask the question: What if I ATE the entire dose of fipronil I was giving to my chickens every month, how much would that be, and how would it compare to "allowable" doses.
Assumptions:
4 chickens
1 drop per chicken per month
1 drop = 0.05 mL (this is the standard conversion)
density of Frontline plus = 1 g/mL - i.e. that of water
Frontline Plus is 9.8% by weight Fipronil.
So:
1 drop per chicken per month x 4 chickens = 4 drops per mongh
4 drops per month x 0.05 mL per drop = 0.2 mL frontline plus per month
0.2 mL frontline plus per month x 1 g/mL = 0.2 g frontline plus per month
0.2 g frontline plus per month x 9.8% fipronil by weight in frontline plus = 0.0196 ~ 0.02 g fipronil per month = 20 mg fipronil per month.
Per the factsheet linked above, the chronic reference dose (RfD) for fipronil is 0.0002 mg/kg/day for humans - this is 100 x less than the NOAEL (No Observable Adverse Affects Level) for rats.
I weigh ~100 kg and one month = 30 days, so:
0.0002 mg/kg/day x 100 kg x 30 days/month = 0.6 mg per month as the chronic reference dose for me.
So, IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil I was dropping on chickens I would be eating ~ 20 mg fipronil per month. The chronic reference dose is 0.6 mg per month for me, so IF I WERE TO EAT all of the fipronil, I would be eating about (20/0.6
Based on this, I wouldn't feel comfortable eating all of the Frontline, and DO NOT suggest anyone drink the stuff, but since I'm not eating the whole chicken (and therefore not all of the fipronil) do I feel comfortable eating the eggs?
So, lets assume (though this doesn't seem to be the case as noted below) that when I put the fipronil on a chicken, it evenly distributes throughout the entire chicken, even into the egg she is just about to lay:
Assumptions:
1 chicken = 4.5 lbs which is around 2 kg
1 egg ~ 60 g ( http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_mass_of_a_chicken_egg )
To calculate the concentration of Fipronil in the chicken:
1 drop = 0.005 g fipronil
0.005g fipronil divided by the mass of the chicken (2 kg) = 2.5 x 10^-6 g fipronil per gram chicken =2.5 ppm by mass fipronil for my chicken.
So, using my assumption that the egg has the same concentration of fipronil as the chicken, a 60-g egg has 60 g x 2.5 x 10^-6 = 0.15 mg fipronil
My chicken lays ~ 20 eggs/month so that's 20 eggs/month x 0.15 mg fipronil/egg = 3 mg fipronil per month if I eat every single egg my chicken lays.
This is still 5 times the reference dose of 0.6 mg/month for me, but this is assuming that 1) the fipronil partitions evenly into all parts of the chicken and 2) the fipronil concentration is the same all month (it isn't because it goes away via loss of poop, skin, feathers, etc). If I use all of the same assumptions, but assume that fipronil goes down throughout the month (either linearly to concentration of 0 at 30 days or exponentially using the whole-blood half-life given in the linked fact sheet ~7 days, calculations not shown, but I can share with the interested), my total fipronil consumption will be either 1.5 mg/month or 1.2 mg/month, meaning just 2 or 3 times the reference dose, which, remember is 100 times LESS than the NOAEL.
Using the exponential model, if I withhold eggs for 2 days, I'm down to 0.82 mg/month and after 5 days withdrawal, I am at 0.6 mg/month, which is the reference dose.
So, assuming that I EAT ALL OF THE EGGS for a chicken for a month and THE CONCENTRATION OF FIPRONIL IN THE EGGS IS THE SAME AS THE ENTIRE CHICKEN - I am just about at the reference dose, especially if I withdraw the eggs for a few days.
Getting more realistic, the concentration in the eggs is likely not the same as the whole chicken. If the concentration in the eggs was 1/2 of the entire chicken, then assuming you ate all of the eggs (in the exponential model) you'd be right at 0.6 mg/month, my reference dose. If it is 1/10th of the entire chicken, you'd be about 5x below the reference dose (0.012 mg/month).
I could find no data on the partitioning of fipronil into eggs from the chicken, but if what the manufacturer says about the fact that fipronil stays mostly in the skin (a fact backed up by: http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/fiptech.pdf ) then the 1/10th partitioning into an egg seems extremely conservative (i.e., I'd guess it was lower)
My conclusion: even if I were to eat all of my chicken's eggs in a month, I would be well below the reference dose. By the way, the chronic reference dose is the the United States Environmental Protection Agency's maximum acceptable oral dose of a toxic substance under chronic exposure ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_dose )
In future work - maybe I'll measure the amount of Fipronil in my chickens' eggs....
Hope this was helpful. It puts my own mind at ease. Lots of people made other excellent points (about alternatives etc.)
-Greg
BodhiRoc/Greg- Your reasoning looks to be pretty sound. In fact, I like and appreciate it very much! As a science person myself, I'll do the usual thing that we tend to do, and call your attention to a couple of *possible* limitations of your assumptions. Really, this might amount to a bit of nitpicking, but once in a while those nitpicks can be important. I'm not coming from a position of experience here, so I could be way off base. I'll leave it to you to decide.
a) One drop is 0.5 mL, but that goes for water. Frontline is a pretty thick, viscous liquid. Is it possible to administer a single-drop dose? (well, without lab equipment...)
b) The health models you mentioned are statistical measures, not absolute thresholds for individuals. So, it's possible that individual rats (and non-rats) could experience effects below those values.
c) This is more of a question: What does ivermectin taste like, and does it have a taste even at low levels, even if there is no biological effect? It looks to be a rather bitter substance. Not sure if I'd like to eat the eggs anyway.
Again, these are only little comments. Now you have me thinking about how the levels in an egg might be determined.......I can be such a nerd, but I love it. Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough analysis!
Pete
a) One drop is 0.5 mL, but that goes for water. Frontline is a pretty thick, viscous liquid. Is it possible to administer a single-drop dose? (well, without lab equipment...)
b) The health models you mentioned are statistical measures, not absolute thresholds for individuals. So, it's possible that individual rats (and non-rats) could experience effects below those values.
c) This is more of a question: What does ivermectin taste like, and does it have a taste even at low levels, even if there is no biological effect? It looks to be a rather bitter substance. Not sure if I'd like to eat the eggs anyway.
Again, these are only little comments. Now you have me thinking about how the levels in an egg might be determined.......I can be such a nerd, but I love it. Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough analysis!
Pete
- Dec 6, 2009
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Hi Pete - Thanks for checking the assumptions - my comments below. Note: This little exercise was only back-of-the-envelope calculation, so is definitely rough, but may provide some guidance. And because assumptions are explicit, feel free to re-do the calculations using your favored ones!
Quote:
I dunno - I'm doing this in advance of the actual experiment - maybe I'll take a dropper of the stuff to the lab. But, nonetheless, this part of the calculation (in fact, the entire calculation except the exponential part) is linear, so if the drops are twice as big (or the density twice as high), then the dose will be twice as big.
Quote:
This is where someone more versed in toxicology would be helpful - anyone? - my understanding is that the chronic reference dose is the rat no observable adverse effect for a rat divided by 10 (to account for the potential difference in sensitivity b/t humans and rats) and divided by 10 again (to account for the fact that certain rat - and non-rat - individuals might be more sensitive than the mean. So, this is taken into account in the calculation - insofar as this is a reasonable approach - which is where the toxicologist would be helpful.
Quote:
I think ivermectin and fipronil are different, with fipronil being the dominant chemical in Frontline Plus (and methoprene - Frontline plus is 8.8% (s)-methoprene but methoprene appears to have no reference dose - basically nontoxic to humans) but in response - no idea what it tastes like, and don't wanna know!
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Check out this doc: http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/methods/rammethods/1995_055M.pdf
It seems to be the standard method for fipronil extraction from eggs for analysis, though more modern techniques appear to use LC-MS rather than GC.
Hey, we could set up a frontline-in-chickens experiment - no reason why not.
Quote:
I dunno - I'm doing this in advance of the actual experiment - maybe I'll take a dropper of the stuff to the lab. But, nonetheless, this part of the calculation (in fact, the entire calculation except the exponential part) is linear, so if the drops are twice as big (or the density twice as high), then the dose will be twice as big.
Quote:
This is where someone more versed in toxicology would be helpful - anyone? - my understanding is that the chronic reference dose is the rat no observable adverse effect for a rat divided by 10 (to account for the potential difference in sensitivity b/t humans and rats) and divided by 10 again (to account for the fact that certain rat - and non-rat - individuals might be more sensitive than the mean. So, this is taken into account in the calculation - insofar as this is a reasonable approach - which is where the toxicologist would be helpful.
Quote:
I think ivermectin and fipronil are different, with fipronil being the dominant chemical in Frontline Plus (and methoprene - Frontline plus is 8.8% (s)-methoprene but methoprene appears to have no reference dose - basically nontoxic to humans) but in response - no idea what it tastes like, and don't wanna know!
Quote:
Check out this doc: http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/methods/rammethods/1995_055M.pdf
It seems to be the standard method for fipronil extraction from eggs for analysis, though more modern techniques appear to use LC-MS rather than GC.
Hey, we could set up a frontline-in-chickens experiment - no reason why not.
BodhiRoc, great analysis, thank you so much! Being a Recovering English Major (ok, with a love of biological sciences but not much background), I can follow your math a little hazily, but I would be interested in your take on this:
One of the foundational assumptions in the calculations is that the fipronil distributes itself evenly through the chicken; my understanding is that this effect in itself is temporary, and that the fipronil accumulates in the oil glands of the skin (Again, from that same technical data sheet I linked to somewhere here) -- and gradually wears off over the 30 days.
So from your understanding of the chemical and how it works, isn't it more likely that it's not uniformly distributed throughout the chicken for most of the action of the dose?
Thanks!
Peigi
One of the foundational assumptions in the calculations is that the fipronil distributes itself evenly through the chicken; my understanding is that this effect in itself is temporary, and that the fipronil accumulates in the oil glands of the skin (Again, from that same technical data sheet I linked to somewhere here) -- and gradually wears off over the 30 days.
So from your understanding of the chemical and how it works, isn't it more likely that it's not uniformly distributed throughout the chicken for most of the action of the dose?
Thanks!
Peigi
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