- Nov 18, 2008
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Those chicks look Wheaten to me.
By the way Crele is specifically defined as a Duckwing e+ wildtype bird.
David
By the way Crele is specifically defined as a Duckwing e+ wildtype bird.
David
Genectics of Golden cuckoo marans
- Thread starter steelshot
- Start date
- May 19, 2009
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Quote:
I'm not sure. I've been re-creating some from copper blacks & cuckoos &, as the French website it says it is to be an orange gold, I've just been going by selection.
I also note the French site says they're gold versions of the silver & the silver cuckoo page say they are either E or ER.
http://marans-club.club.fr/ca.htm#ca
================
Hi Krys,
Yes, they say GC is a gold version of the silver. I am thinking they mean the golde version of the birchen, not the cuckoo. In that case, the correct Golden Cuckoo would be e+ based. When Golden Cuckoo is based on e+, that's when one sees the darker golden hackles.
Best,
Karen Tewart
I'm not sure. I've been re-creating some from copper blacks & cuckoos &, as the French website it says it is to be an orange gold, I've just been going by selection.
I also note the French site says they're gold versions of the silver & the silver cuckoo page say they are either E or ER.
http://marans-club.club.fr/ca.htm#ca
================
Hi Krys,
Yes, they say GC is a gold version of the silver. I am thinking they mean the golde version of the birchen, not the cuckoo. In that case, the correct Golden Cuckoo would be e+ based. When Golden Cuckoo is based on e+, that's when one sees the darker golden hackles.
Best,
Karen Tewart
I just wanted to share some pictures of my feather shanked golden cuckoo boy! he was about 6 months in the pictures. Cant wait to get some chicks from him this spring!
He is gorgeous! Good luck with your breeding season!
thank you! I was very lucky to have found him on craigslist only about an hour away from me. I had looked all over the country and found him so close to home. Now my girls just need to resume laying!
- May 19, 2009
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Well , if Bev only has a few, best to look elsewhere for actual stock. e+ (crele) Golden Cuckoo are really rare. Most all GC have eWh bred into them regardless of which allele they began with. That is why they are lighter colored than the crele Golden Cuckoo. Best to try breeding your own. Maybe check with Ed Hess in Portland, Indiana ( I think this is current: [email protected] ) and see if he has pure Golden Salmon. Then get a cuckoo Marans and cross them. The start winnowig out the undesireables ( don't have the genetic ratios on hand for this) Tad or David Hancox (Blackdotte) could probably help you with it. ..
till you end up with pure e+ crele Golden Cuckoo. A correctly made crele Golden Cuckoo is the same as a Golden Salmon with barring. That's why Bev has been able to make Crele Golden Cuckoo. She has been working on her Golden Salmon for several years now.
Remember you want a Golden Salmon hen to make with a cuckoo male. That way you can be sure it is true Golden Salmon. Golden Salmon males can be hiding the eb gene, or melanizers and you wouldn't know until the eggs hatched.
Best,
Karen
Waterford English Light Sussex
in western PA
====================More on places to find Golden Salmon Marans =======================
1. First of all, there are three closed flock of GS Marans in the US with real nice birds. Don't waste your time, you will not get in, just get put off. Marie Cantrell in Montana, Bev Davis in FL. and Arla Meininger in Michigan.
Now that said, I believe there is an end run available you can use to get around this situation. It's innovative, but I think it will work based on my research and personal experience. Two names, Connie Zullo in Georgia and Jesus Llano in FL.( Both have contact info on the Net ). Connie has a lovely show winning GS rooster from FL and a couple of GS hens from a MO farm. Get 2 dozen eggs from this trio. They will hatch out BTB females, GS females and all mis-marked cull males. Your GS females should be 12.5 to 25% of all the females hatched. So you see you need chicks or 2-3 dozen eggs. Cull all the males. Raise up the BTB females and sell them. They are lovely birds and should command a nice price as started chicks because they don't carry the MH gene (at least mine didn't). Keep the GS females. Connie is a very nice lady. Tell her I sent you.
Now get in touch with Jesus LLano in FL. He breeds dogs and chickens. Jesus is working on a Red Pyle Marans which he calls White Copper Marans. Anyway, he used GS Marans as half his foundation flock. He breeds the red pyle and the Black Copper together to continue his White Copper Marans project. Every once and a while, a GS rooster shows up. Make arrangements to buy one of his GS. When it is ready, breed it to your GS pullets from Zullo. You should get some GS (25%) in the get , maybe some BTB (25%) to sell, and some GS with modifiers (50%) which need to be bred out. It may not be possible to tell the diffierence between the pure GS and the GS with modifiers, tho if you have studied the chick down, it is definitive for pure GS and you should be able to tell.
Set up two breeding pens ...one with mostly Zullo genetics and one with mostly LLano genetics and line-breed. In a couple of years, I am sure a new GS strain will pop up and give you a chance to out-cross to a related strain for a bit more diversity.
Be very careful, tho. Remember, GS has no hypostatic genes. In other words, it is based only on the e+ allele carrying the s+ gene in males ; and in females s- gene instead. Any other gene or modifier added to this formula corrupts GS and it disappears , its visage marred or dulled. But the up-side is, once you get pure-breeding GS, the color self-replicates and you can have fun breeding to type. No color balancing needed, yeah!.
GS are most properly not called Gold Duckwing ( they can be called that , however, it is a confusing term which leads to genetic color misunderstanding, so best not to use it). They are not Golden Duckwing ( carries the Silver gene) or Red Duckwing ( carries the Mahogany gene).
The proper names for GS Marans are 1. Golden Salmon Marans. 2. The Black-Breasted Red cock with the salmon-breasted, stippled hen.
Now about chick down. The most dreadful sign you want to watch for is the brown helmet on the chick instead of the dorsal head stripe which comes up over the top of the head. The helmet denotes the eb (Brown) gene and thus foreign blood, run the other way! The width, brightness, and clarity of the stripes on the back will also tell you if the blood is pure or carrying modifiers. The eye stripe should be clearly and crisply marked, with proper width, length, and hue. There should be no spotting anywhere on the head or neck. Esp. not a pair of 2 dark dots side-by-side on top the head.
Shanks/feet on both sexes should be either white or light yellow as chicks and shading to white with a pinkish cast on both sexes as adults. Anyone who tells you the females can have slaty-black shanks/feet as adults doesn't know their GS genetics and is wrong. Remember this color has no hypostatic genes. Hypostatsic genes cause slaty-black shanks/feet.
About 2 years ago, the French Marans Club established an international commission for breeders of Golden and Silver Salmon Marans aimed at networking, educating about, and promoting these colors. Google Translate does a fine job of translating the French pages. . All the info about the commissiion and contact info is in the Premium Pages of the MOAC. You need to join MOAC and pay an extra $12.00 a year to access the Premium Pages. It is well worth it. I helped set them up and they are a series of excellent articles translated from the French, written by French breeders of Marans. Subjects are on type, incubation, Salmon Marans, the comb, and other worthwhile Marans topics.
Well, that's all . Enjoy your journey on Salmon Marans. I wish you all the best success!
Best Regards,
Karen Tewart in western PA, USA
Waterford English Sussex
Former Director of Archives
Marans of America Club
P.S Regardless of what you decide, do not use GS Marans out of any color except BTB or Golden Salmon lineage. Despite the seeming uneasy genetic alliance between BTB, GS and Wheaton, You will rue the day if you use GS sports from Wheaten ...or Black Copper lineage. They carry modifiers which will haunt you. Also do not use any GS from a cross to another breed, esp. Welsummer. Most likely you will run into autosomal red, Mh and/or yellow legs which will haunt you or set themselves in your flock till they are almost impossible to irradicate.
till you end up with pure e+ crele Golden Cuckoo. A correctly made crele Golden Cuckoo is the same as a Golden Salmon with barring. That's why Bev has been able to make Crele Golden Cuckoo. She has been working on her Golden Salmon for several years now.
Remember you want a Golden Salmon hen to make with a cuckoo male. That way you can be sure it is true Golden Salmon. Golden Salmon males can be hiding the eb gene, or melanizers and you wouldn't know until the eggs hatched.
Best,
Karen
Waterford English Light Sussex
in western PA
====================More on places to find Golden Salmon Marans =======================
1. First of all, there are three closed flock of GS Marans in the US with real nice birds. Don't waste your time, you will not get in, just get put off. Marie Cantrell in Montana, Bev Davis in FL. and Arla Meininger in Michigan.
Now that said, I believe there is an end run available you can use to get around this situation. It's innovative, but I think it will work based on my research and personal experience. Two names, Connie Zullo in Georgia and Jesus Llano in FL.( Both have contact info on the Net ). Connie has a lovely show winning GS rooster from FL and a couple of GS hens from a MO farm. Get 2 dozen eggs from this trio. They will hatch out BTB females, GS females and all mis-marked cull males. Your GS females should be 12.5 to 25% of all the females hatched. So you see you need chicks or 2-3 dozen eggs. Cull all the males. Raise up the BTB females and sell them. They are lovely birds and should command a nice price as started chicks because they don't carry the MH gene (at least mine didn't). Keep the GS females. Connie is a very nice lady. Tell her I sent you.
Now get in touch with Jesus LLano in FL. He breeds dogs and chickens. Jesus is working on a Red Pyle Marans which he calls White Copper Marans. Anyway, he used GS Marans as half his foundation flock. He breeds the red pyle and the Black Copper together to continue his White Copper Marans project. Every once and a while, a GS rooster shows up. Make arrangements to buy one of his GS. When it is ready, breed it to your GS pullets from Zullo. You should get some GS (25%) in the get , maybe some BTB (25%) to sell, and some GS with modifiers (50%) which need to be bred out. It may not be possible to tell the diffierence between the pure GS and the GS with modifiers, tho if you have studied the chick down, it is definitive for pure GS and you should be able to tell.
Set up two breeding pens ...one with mostly Zullo genetics and one with mostly LLano genetics and line-breed. In a couple of years, I am sure a new GS strain will pop up and give you a chance to out-cross to a related strain for a bit more diversity.
Be very careful, tho. Remember, GS has no hypostatic genes. In other words, it is based only on the e+ allele carrying the s+ gene in males ; and in females s- gene instead. Any other gene or modifier added to this formula corrupts GS and it disappears , its visage marred or dulled. But the up-side is, once you get pure-breeding GS, the color self-replicates and you can have fun breeding to type. No color balancing needed, yeah!.
GS are most properly not called Gold Duckwing ( they can be called that , however, it is a confusing term which leads to genetic color misunderstanding, so best not to use it). They are not Golden Duckwing ( carries the Silver gene) or Red Duckwing ( carries the Mahogany gene).
The proper names for GS Marans are 1. Golden Salmon Marans. 2. The Black-Breasted Red cock with the salmon-breasted, stippled hen.
Now about chick down. The most dreadful sign you want to watch for is the brown helmet on the chick instead of the dorsal head stripe which comes up over the top of the head. The helmet denotes the eb (Brown) gene and thus foreign blood, run the other way! The width, brightness, and clarity of the stripes on the back will also tell you if the blood is pure or carrying modifiers. The eye stripe should be clearly and crisply marked, with proper width, length, and hue. There should be no spotting anywhere on the head or neck. Esp. not a pair of 2 dark dots side-by-side on top the head.
Shanks/feet on both sexes should be either white or light yellow as chicks and shading to white with a pinkish cast on both sexes as adults. Anyone who tells you the females can have slaty-black shanks/feet as adults doesn't know their GS genetics and is wrong. Remember this color has no hypostatic genes. Hypostatsic genes cause slaty-black shanks/feet.
About 2 years ago, the French Marans Club established an international commission for breeders of Golden and Silver Salmon Marans aimed at networking, educating about, and promoting these colors. Google Translate does a fine job of translating the French pages. . All the info about the commissiion and contact info is in the Premium Pages of the MOAC. You need to join MOAC and pay an extra $12.00 a year to access the Premium Pages. It is well worth it. I helped set them up and they are a series of excellent articles translated from the French, written by French breeders of Marans. Subjects are on type, incubation, Salmon Marans, the comb, and other worthwhile Marans topics.
Well, that's all . Enjoy your journey on Salmon Marans. I wish you all the best success!
Best Regards,
Karen Tewart in western PA, USA
Waterford English Sussex
Former Director of Archives
Marans of America Club
P.S Regardless of what you decide, do not use GS Marans out of any color except BTB or Golden Salmon lineage. Despite the seeming uneasy genetic alliance between BTB, GS and Wheaton, You will rue the day if you use GS sports from Wheaten ...or Black Copper lineage. They carry modifiers which will haunt you. Also do not use any GS from a cross to another breed, esp. Welsummer. Most likely you will run into autosomal red, Mh and/or yellow legs which will haunt you or set themselves in your flock till they are almost impossible to irradicate.
Last edited:
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