Genetic questions!

[Amer]

The described hen was a wheaten Ameraucana Dominique bantam cross!

 

[Sir Sacabambaspis]

I found this cemani barnyard mix with parents fairly similar to Vadakor and Butterscotch, it looks just like my chick I had hatch!

 

[Sir Sacabambaspis]

The described hen was a wheaten Ameraucana Dominique bantam cross!

That's super fascinating!

 

[NatJ]

His father was a Silver leghorn but his mom was a Olive Egger (BCM crossed Cream Legbar)

What "BCM" do you mean?
Black Copper Marans?
Blue Cuckoo Marans?
Blue Copper Marans?
Black Cuckoo Marans?

(If the M is not Marans, then there are even more possibilities.)

 

[Sir Sacabambaspis]

What "BCM" do you mean?
Black Copper Marans?
Blue Cuckoo Marans?
Blue Copper Marans?
Black Cuckoo Marans?

(If the M is not Marans, then there are even more possibilities.)

I meant Black Copper Marans!

 

[NatJ]

I meant Black Copper Marans!

In that case:

The mom was extended black and the dad was duckwing.

No, the mom was not extended black.

Black Copper Marans are birchen.
Cream Legbars should be duckwing.*

A cross of Black Copper Marans (birchen) and Cream Legbar (duckwing) should never produce an extended black chick.

*duckwing, wild-type, e+ are all different ways to say the same thing. I'm using "duckwing" because it is the word you used, but I'm including the other words here in case I get absent-minded and use one of them, or in case someone else reading this is more familiar with one of them.

His father was a Silver leghorn but his mom was a Olive Egger (BCM crossed Cream Legbar), but due to the fact that he's not Duckwing I believe he's Extended Black. Since his chest is fully black he's probably not Birchen...

If the Silver Leghorn is duckwing, and the mother is birchen/duckwing, then their chick must be either duckwing or birchen.

You say he isn't duckwing, so that means he must be birchen.

You say the fully black breast means he is probably not birchen.
But here's a hatchery with photos of birchen chickens, and some of those males appear to have solid black breasts:
https://www.cacklehatchery.com/product/birchen-old-english-standard/

Given that he is birchen/duckwing split, I wonder if that makes his breast more likely to be solid black? (Not sure, just guessing there.)

 

[Sir Sacabambaspis]

In that case:

No, the mom was not extended black.

Black Copper Marans are birchen.

umm... no they're not... They don't fit the description or standard for Birchen at all...

Cream Legbars should be duckwing.*

A cross of Black Copper Marans (birchen) and Cream Legbar (duckwing) should never produce an extended black chick.

*duckwing, wild-type, e+ are all different ways to say the same thing. I'm using "duckwing" because it is the word you used, but I'm including the other words here in case I get absent-minded and use one of them, or in case someone else reading this is more familiar with one of them.


If the Silver Leghorn is duckwing, and the mother is birchen/duckwing, then their chick must be either duckwing or birchen.

You say he isn't duckwing, so that means he must be birchen.

He doesn't fit the description or standard for Duckwing or Birchen

You say the fully black breast means he is probably not birchen.
But here's a hatchery with photos of birchen chickens, and some of those males appear to have solid black breasts:
https://www.cacklehatchery.com/product/birchen-old-english-standard/

There's a lot of confusion between the birchen gene and extended black with leakage and they were actually thought to be the same thing until they were officially classified as two separate genes. Extended black with missing gene enhancers causes three known varying levels of color leakage (located on the hackles, saddle feathers, and wingbow). Birchen although similar does have some traits that make it a different gene. Such as the lacing located on the breast feathers of both roosters and hens.

Given that he is birchen/duckwing split, I wonder if that makes his breast more likely to be solid black? (Not sure, just guessing there.)

I find that question very interesting, but there's no birchen gene present soooo...

 

[Amer]

umm... no they're not... They don't fit the description or standard for Birchen at all...

He doesn't fit the description or standard for Duckwing or Birchen

There's a lot of confusion between the birchen gene and extended black with leakage and they were actually thought to be the same thing until they were officially classified as two separate genes. Extended black with missing gene enhancers causes three known varying levels of color leakage (located on the hackles, saddle feathers, and wingbow). Birchen although similar does have some traits that make it a different gene. Such as the lacing located on the breast feathers of both roosters and hens.

I find that question very interesting, but there's no birchen gene present soooo...

Yes they are...
I'm surprised you know all that about extended black but not that Black Copper Marans are Birchen based.
Black Copper Marans are red birchen, and while they aren't supposed to have red in the breast, many of them do. But just like modifiers can remove the color from Extended Black, modifiers can remove the red from the breasts of Birchen.

 

[Amer]

Anyway, it would be very unusual for an Extended Black based female to have the same amount of red in the neck as you would find in black copper Marans.

 

[NatJ]

umm... no they're not... They don't fit the description or standard for Birchen at all...

Everywhere I look, I read that Black Copper Marans have the Birchen gene (E^ER) not Extended Black. (The actual "Birchen" variety of any breed has silver instead of the gold you see in Black Copper Marans, but otherwise it's the same color pattern.)

If you want particular sources, here is one example:
https://marans.eu/genetiqa.htm#genetiqa
"With regard to the mission of the Marans-Club de France: it is much more significant today to preserve, seriously and rigorously, the many current varieties and those which are genetically and directly derived from it, likely from homologation (for example, Silvered Black [Birchen], Blue-copper or Silvered-Blue [Blue Birchen], which derives from Black-copper [Brown-Red], rather than to create new ones. "

That is the French Marans Club. Note that they are saying Birchen and Blue Birchen are derived from "Black-copper" which they say is the same as "Brown-Red" (and "Brown Red" is the usual term for a chicken with the Birchen pattern in gold rather than silver.) That comes right after they discuss other new color varieties that people may want to develop, and they are saying that it's more important to preserve the traditional varieties and the ones most closely related to them.

He doesn't fit the description or standard for Duckwing or Birchen

Agreed. But I think he more closely resembled non-standard Birchen rather than non-standard Extended Black.

I find that question very interesting, but there's no birchen gene present soooo...

Except that I think he DOES have the Birchen gene.

There's a lot of confusion between the birchen gene and extended black with leakage and they were actually thought to be the same thing until they were officially classified as two separate genes. Extended black with missing gene enhancers causes three known varying levels of color leakage (located on the hackles, saddle feathers, and wingbow). Birchen although similar does have some traits that make it a different gene. Such as the lacing located on the breast feathers of both roosters and hens.

I agree that Birchen and Extended Black are different genes. I also agree that they can sometimes cause overlapping appearance (like Birchen plus melanizers causing solid black chickens, or Extended Black with leakage looking somewhat similar to typical Birchen.) But it still seems to be much more common for Black Copper Marans to be Birchen, not Extended Black. And if neither parent has Extended Black, then their son cannot have it either. So it all comes back to whether your particular Black Copper Marans hen did have Birchen (normal/correct for breed) or Extended Black (not what would be expected, but I suppose we can't completely rule it out.)