Genetically speaking... What are patterned Orpingtons?

[ColtHandorf]

Here is another decent picture of Sterling and Duchess in the sun, who produced the two chicks in my hand a few posts above.

 

[CountryFlock]

I see Moonshiner pointing out the exact same things I am but worded really differently.

To clear this up a bit. You’re looking for a lavender laced silver Orpington project and/or a blue laced silver Orpington project?


Also:
Based on that odd chick hatching there might be some genetic holes in your orps even if their lacing is good.

Did any of your silver laced orps hatch like that brown chick?

 

[nicalandia]

What I was mainly referring to here was the term "unicolor laced". I guess I don't understand why it specifies blue as unicolor-laced and black as only unicolor.

I am sure Black can hide lacing under it but phenotypically they will be Black Unicolor, unlike blue that can't hide lacing(as in Andalucian blues)

Laced unicolor(shades of blue but not silver or gold) vs Unicolor blue

Laced Blue Andalucian

[/Q

Now don't expect this type of lacing on the first cross because the Co and Pg will be in heterozygous form(Ml should be homozygous)

Ideally I'd like to cross My Silver-laced males over Splash Orpington hens as well as Lavender Orpington hens. So in the initial crosses of both varieties to Silver-laced could I expect to see any lacing at all

Only with the cross with Splash you may see some form of blue lacing perhaps not all well defined

 

[ColtHandorf]

Did any of your silver laced orps hatch like that brown chick?

All of the adult birds I have were purchased as adults so I do not know what down color they had as chicks. The two birds in my hand were hatched from the one pair of birds. The older chick featured in the separate thread was produced by two of the four birds I purchased from another breeder. So the adults are all Silver-laced but throw chicks with down characteristic of Gold-laced birds but feather in Silver-laced.

To clear this up a bit. You’re looking for a lavender laced silver Orpington project and/or a blue laced silver Orpington project?

Yes, I currently own Silver-laced Orpingtons and Lavender Orpingtons. I am planning on obtaining some Blue/Black/Splash Orpingtons in the next week. I would like to breed all three varieties but also work on a Lavender Silver-laced project as well as a Blue Silver-laced project.

I see Moonshiner pointing out the exact same things I am but worded really differently.

Yes, he uses the calculator as tool to double check himself. He's self-taught when it comes to genetics. So yes, the verbiage is very different. That's why I'd like it clearly outlined what the best way to achieve a variety with a blue ground color and silver lacing and a variety with lavender ground color and silver lacing.

To go back a bit, since I get chicks with gold-type down would it be prudent to use those pullets in the Lavender project, or would that just muddy things up even more?

And to go back a few more posts, what are the thoughts on crossing the Silver-laced onto Black Orpingtons? Obviously not Blacks that are or could possibly be split for Lavender, meaning only blacks produced from the BBS pen would ever be used for that outcross.

 

[CountryFlock]

I fear the reason for the odd down color is that the chick could be heterozygous for a certain necessary gene.
For example: Ml/ml or Co/co

I would not use that chick.

But I’m trying to explain how lavender mixed with silver laced hens would not workout into lavender silver laced that well.
This is because all genes that are needed for silver lacing are not even in black, lavender, or blue Orpingtons.

If you breed lavender to silver laced you end up with a chick that’s heterozygous for 3-4 genes. And if you breed this heterozygous chick with a lavender orp you get some lavender chicks but you have 50% chance to lose each gene that’s heterozygous (which are 3-4 genes). If you breed this to a silver laced orp you may get those genes back but 50% of the chicks will be heterozygous for lavender. With the other 50% not even having the lavender gene. And you wouldn’t know which ones have the lavender gene or not because lavender is recessive.

When working with silver laced you need to start from the ground up genetically when adding a single foreign gene like lavender.

What I’m saying is you should start at a base of just eb/eb and lavender (which are Isabel Orpingtons) and work your way into adding all the genes necessary for silver lacing one at a time.

So after you have eb/eb lav/lav you want to add the pattern gene. (Which is Pg)

You get the pattern gene from gold multiple laced partridge orps.

I hope I’m explaining this ok.

This is important so that when you finally get lavender silver laced orps, they breed true.

Now if you decide to breed lavender and silver laced together and then keep selectively breeding chicks that may look more like what is desired you may end up with a chicken that’s pretty much lavender silver laced but you wouldn’t truely know it’s genetic background and there would NOT be a very good chance that it’s future generations would keep pumping out chickens that look like it. But after a long time of selective breeding, you might be able to have a true breeding lavender silver orp. By long time I do mean long time. 10+ years.

I believe building a lavender silver laced orp from Isabel orps could take up to 6-8 years but it’s the better route to go.

It’s up to you though of course but I’m giving my strong viewpoint.

 

[CountryFlock]

@The Moonshiner
Would you agree?

 

[ColtHandorf]

I should not have taken Benadryl before reading that just now. I’ll read it all again tomorrow. But, do you know of anyone selling Isabel Orpingtons? Which if I’m understanding are Gold-laced with the Lavender gene, thus diluting the black and the gold. There’s a woman a few miles from me that has a Blue-laced Gold rooster. I wonder if he’d be any good for this project?

 

[nicalandia]

When working with silver laced you need to start from the ground up genetically when adding a single foreign gene like lavender.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

the best rout to take is to breed Isabel Orps with Black Silver/Gold/Red laced Orps(I prefer Black Laced Red because that will create the most contrast) Take the best F1s and breed them together, hatch many F2s and you will get your Lavender Laced Orps

I also suggest against it due to the close linkage between Pg/Pg with Ml/Ml or in the case of partridge based birds with only Pg/Pg, ml+/ml+, this means that the lone Pg/Pg is now linked to the ml+/ml+ gene(by 10 map units) so chances of F2 chicks hatching with homozygous Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml are only about 10%(cross over/recombination) and the rest will be Pg/pg+, Ml/ml+, Pg/Pg, ml+/ml+, pg+/pg+ Ml/Ml

 

[ColtHandorf]

@Texas Kiki you're stalking me! lol I kept getting notifications that I had new alerts. They were all from you.

 

[Kiki]

@Texas Kiki you're stalking me! lol I kept getting notifications that I had new alerts. They were all from you.

I'm trying to learn all this gibberish to me stuff.

I gotta follow from the beginning so I don't get lost.

It will take me a few times if reading this thread, so far, to try to figure out what's what.