Genetics Experts: Can you get Lavender from B/B/S?

[Germaine_11.20]

lildinkem-- if he is a blue splash, is there a "splash"? What other types of splash might there be? I had a mottled black cochin--would that be a form of splash.

I hope I am not frustrating everyone, I just don't quite understand yet.

 

[lildinkem]

Quote:
I'm as curious as you. IS he a SPLASH? lololol That was I thought till sreihart posted the chart. Then I guessed the BUS was genetically actin like a Black. And the chart said there would not be any splashes. Then I had several folks wonder IF they screwed up and sent me a bird with that gene. At least the Blue Splash hen's breeder.
Now someone mentioned the possibility of a LAV Splash. I would like to see one of them. I bet it would be closer to this look of Blue then anything else. Like Chris said we will know what is going on when I use one back to a black. So, do you got something to do for 6 months or so? lololol

 

[Germaine_11.20]

I'm in! I would love to follow along and learn. What an interesting twist this is taking!

 

[pips&peeps]

Quote:
I'm as curious as you. IS he a SPLASH? lololol That was I thought till sreihart posted the chart. Then I guessed the BUS was genetically actin like a Black. And the chart said there would not be any splashes. Then I had several folks wonder IF they screwed up and sent me a bird with that gene. At least the Blue Splash hen's breeder.
Now someone mentioned the possibility of a LAV Splash. I would like to see one of them. I bet it would be closer to this look of Blue then anything else. Like Chris said we will know what is going on when I use one back to a black. So, do you got something to do for 6 months or so? lololol

This is going to sound harsh, so SORRY, but I feel it is important to say it:

This is why you should seperate and breed your birds by color. Instead of throwing them together and wondering later what you ended up with.

 

[lildinkem]

Quote:
It is alot of fun. I know which eggs are hers. I wait till I get 3 or 4 and throw them in and who knows nowwhat can come out? Including the 2 Black girls with BUS, the last hatch was 13 and one was the yellowish chick with green like legs.
This little guy was hatched 5 or 6 days ago. He is already changing and has some blue on his head and back by his tail. I guess he is the new one to this mix.

the darker chicks are babies from one of bamma's boys on my Black girls. I have 3 Blues and a Black with the splash. Again theyellow chick is from the BUS.

 

[lildinkem]

pips&peeps :

Quote:
I'm as curious as you. IS he a SPLASH? lololol That was I thought till sreihart posted the chart. Then I guessed the BUS was genetically actin like a Black. And the chart said there would not be any splashes. Then I had several folks wonder IF they screwed up and sent me a bird with that gene. At least the Blue Splash hen's breeder.
Now someone mentioned the possibility of a LAV Splash. I would like to see one of them. I bet it would be closer to this look of Blue then anything else. Like Chris said we will know what is going on when I use one back to a black. So, do you got something to do for 6 months or so? lololol

This is going to sound harsh, so SORRY, but I feel it is important to say it:

This is why you should seperate and breed your birds by color. Instead of throwing them together and wondering later what you ended up with.​

I agree Jean. This was a planned breding. I am guessing you are talking about me having a Black Australorp on my Akers Buff girls. When I got them last spring, Lee did not ever get a fertile egg from 5 Buff orp pullets. He wondered IF it was his cockerel. So, to find out. I took my horniest known proven boy to his girls. After a week I candled. And then knew the Akers girls were good to go. Now is when I called Doug and bought a cockerel. Brought him home. Thought he did the job. he didn't. Put eggs into th bator. OFCOURSE they wer fertile, still from the Australorp boy. When they hatched, like about a dozen. I knew they weren't pure. I placed to new homes ALL but the BUS. I liked him since he obviously has size. And I wondered what would come out of him. At that time I only had a few Blacks. Still no Buff cockerel. I was on BYC trying to get one a year ago. So, I threw the BUS in a pen with a bunch of young EE's to grow out. When I took the pic you seen of the BUS, is when I fell in love. I can see that body of Orp with a BLACK or BLue. And out of the last hatch of a 13, I got one of these what ever you call ems, one noticeable Blue and the rest are Blacks. I am HAPPY. IF our friend is correct, there is a chance BUS has a primitive form of lacing. I would like to find that out. I say he is to me like other folks projects are to them. Except here I just want a look from a top notch Buff Orp breeder's bloodline that is hard to get in Buff, and make some into Blacks and Blues. To me, that is cool. And I think Jean you will agree it wouldn't hurt anything IF the BUS is only in a pen with three rejects from my Black breeders eyes, put in with him.

I have to VERY MUCH thank my friend Doug Akers. He apparently has been keeping score without my asking and brought up the term with Matt. I thought it would be fair to say what is now and what will prolly happen in the eyes of the APA.

"Bill,

I checked with Matt Lhamon, ABA Vice-Pres., regarding terminology. He says that lavender and self-blue are the same. Lavender is the European terminology. Self-blue is the American terminology. He’s not sure if the American clubs are open to that term since Self blue is what they have always been called. But, he’s sure it will come up soon in the Standard Committees.

Doug

"

 

[wilds of pa]

These are cool lavenders..pdf file link
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/10E02A04.pdf


THREE VARIETIES OF BLUE
By Dusty Miller

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been interested in blue varieties of poultry for several years. I have raised Blue Cochin bantams and friends raised Blue Rosecombs and White Crested Blue Polish. The APA and ABA standards call for blue to be a medium blue laced with darker blue or black. I tried to achieve good lacing in my breeding program, sometimes with good results, usually results were poor. Good lacing seems extremely difficult to achieve. This blue is said to be heterozygous, that is, it does not breed true. The results of breeding blue x blue are 25% black, 50% blue, and 25% blue splash.
While developing my strain of White Dutch, I had some off color chicks. One was a lovely blue pullet, slightly laced with darker blue. At about one year old she also developed a bit of white hackle lacing. This pullet was useful in my breeding of Birchen and Blue Dutch. As to the blue breeding, I bred this pullet to a Black Dutch male. Three chicks were all pullets, but they were a plain pigeon blue without any lacing. The next year I bred these three pullets to Black Dutch again, this time getting some blue and some black chicks. The following year I bred both blue x black, and blue x blue. Of the chicks this year the ratio is 100% plain pigeon blue males and 65%-75% plain pigeon blue females. The remaining 25%-35% of the females were a slightly darker blue, with darker blue or black lacing.

My blues certainly did not follow the Standards here in the U.S., so I began looking for information. In a letter to

Mrs. Anna Banning in Holland, among other items, I mentioned these blues and the lack of lacing. Mrs. Banning replied to my letter and said that the Holland Standard called for Blue Dutch to be the non-laced variety, and that other breeds also called for a non-laced blue variety. She did say that this non-laced blue was also heterozygous, it would breed black, blue, blue splash.

The Holland Standard is set up with the variety section having all common varieties listed by number. If a deviation of the variety standard exists in a certain breed, that deviation is listed under the breed. It most resembles the organization here of the ABA Standard.

# 70 in the Holland Standard is "Blauw (ongezoomed)" which translates to Blue (non-laced). It calls for a light colored blue without lacing.

# 71 in the Holland Standard is "Blauw (gezoomed)" which translates to Blue (laced). The description calls for medium light blue with dark blue black lacing.

# 72 in the Holland Standard is "parelgrijs" which literally translates to 'pearl gray' and corresponds to Self Blue in the U.S. and Lavender in other countries. It is a true breeding blue; light blue with silver tint, no lacing.

In the Holland Standard there are 19 breeds which list variety #70, non-laced blue; 20 breeds list #71, laced blue; and 6 breeds list #72 lavender. As a matter of fact, 5 breeds have listings for #70 and #71, non-laced blue and laced blue. And 3 breeds list all three blues #70, #71, and #72.

The British Poultry Standards, Fourth Edition, gives variety descriptions under the individual breed standards. A prerequisite to reading the British Standard is to define self color -"a uniform color, unmixed with any other." In Britain the self blue of the U.S. is called lavender and when they use the term "self color" it could be black, buff, blue, white or any other plain unmixed color. Blue is always listed as "The Blue" and only by reading the descriptions does one know whether it is laced or non-laced blue for that breed standard.

The British Standard has this description of Andalusian: "The breed owes it's name to the Province of Andalusia in Spain, and is one of the oldest of the Mediterranean breeds. It is a contemporary of the black Spanish with which, no doubt, it is closely related. The blue Andalusian, as we know it today, was developed from black and white stock imported from Andalusia about 1846, and blending of the two colors most probably created the blue. The earlier specimens were large, and game-like in carriage, with medium combs and lobes, and of a self color, although individual birds were selectively bred for lacing, by infusion of black Minorca blood."

"Color - Male and female plumage: Clear blue, edged with distinct black lacing, not too narrow, on each feather, excepting the males' sickles, which are dark (or even black), and his hackles, which are black with a rich gloss, while the female's neck hackle is a rich lustrous black, showing broad lacing on the tips of the feathers at the base of the neck. Under color to tone with surface color."

Other breeds calling for a laced blue variety in the British Standard similar to the Andalusian laced blue are: Australorp, d'Anvers, d'Uccles, Faverolles, Jersey Giant, Modern Langshan, Orpington and Naked Neck.

The Pekin Bantam (Cochin Bantam in U.S.) has a description for non-laced blue: "A rich pale blue (pigeon blue preferred) free from lacing, but with rich dark blue hackles, back and tail in the male." The description for Wyandotte non-laced is "One even shade of blue, light to dark, but medium preferred; a clear solid blue, free from mealiness, 'pepper', sandiness, or bronze, and quite clear of lacing; a 'self color' in fact. Other breeds in the British Standard calling for a similar version of non-laced blue are: Cochin, Frizzle, Japanese, Leghorn, Minorca, Old English Game, Poland, Rosecomb, and Silkie.

Lavender is described in the British Standard under d'Anvers and d'Uccles: "Male and female plumage: This is a true breeding pale silvery blue, all the feathers being of one uniform shade." Under Pekin Bantams, lavender is further described as "The lavender is not a lighter shade of blue Pekin. It is different genetically and is of a lighter shade more silver tint without the darker shade associated with the normal blue. The silver tint is most obvious in the neck and saddle hackle feathers of the male." Besides the Belgian breeds and the Pekin, breeds listing lavender varieties include Araucana, Rumpless Araucana and Japanese.

In his book Bantam Chickens Fred Jeffrey lists this about the genetics of Blue: "Proposed geneotype - EE(extended black), ebonies (hypothetical), Blbl (blue), LgLg (lacing)." Under self blue (U.S. name for lavender) Jeffrey writes: "Proposed genotype - EE (extended black), ebonies (hypothetical), MlMl (melanotic), lavlav (lavender)." Jeffrey refers to Brumbaugh, Chatterjee, and Hollander (1972) in discussing the gene action of self blue (lavender): "The genetic basis and gene action of lavender (lav), a new, autosomal recessive pigment - diluting mutant of the fowl has been established. Black feathers become gray and red feathers become buff when influenced by this mutant."

J. Robert Smyth reports, "The genetic basis for the difference between Andalusian type of blue-black distribution and the self-colored blues has received little attention. Carefoot (1988) concluded that the laced pattern of the Andalusian Bantam was due to homozygosity for the eumelanin intensifier, melanotic (ml), the pattern gene (Pg), and the Columbian restrictor gene (Co), on an E/E Bl/Bl+background. Cote (1976) noted that blue was ineffective in modifying black melanin attributable to Ml and Lg, which suggests that the absence of these genes might result in a self-blue pattern."

Carefoot discusses lacing, "Moore and Smyth (1972a) successfully analyzed the genetic make up of the pattern of the Silver-Laced Wyandotte. They showed that the laced effect was the product of three separate genes on an e(b) ground. The first one was Columbian Co which cleared the back and breast of the e(b) bird to that of the Columbian Wyandotte. Then a combination of the black enhancing gene melanotic Ml and an ordering gene of which they denoted lacing Lg-added sufficient black pigment to the feather and arranged this pigment in an outer lace. It will be shown that this 'lacing' gene is in fact the pattern gene Pg."

Under the section on Blue, Carefoot comments, "The breeding of self blues, without lacing is akin to the breeding of buffs in that both are pastel shades and require minor modifiers to attain the ideal standard.

From all the information gathered, including the above, it would appear that a simplification of each of the three varieties of blue would be:

1. Lavender (self blue in U.S. only) is caused by the gene denoted lavender (lav). It is a true breeding, homozygous (breeding the same), pale silver tinted blue color. Lavender is the gene which when added to a mille fleur changes it to a porcelain. Any varieties which are part blue, such as Blue Red or Blue Wheaton cannot have the lavender gene because it dilutes all colors, not just black; it would also change the red to buff.

2. Blue (laced) is most common in the U.S., where the only standards for blue specify lacing. A medium blue is what most breeders strive for, but blue varies from almost black to the very palest blue color. Lacing is listed as being black or a darker blue. It appears from the literature that some experts say the lacing is caused by the lacing gene Lg, while some say it is a pattern gene Pg. Having no expertise about genes, it does appear that some separate entity or gene does exist that is responsible for lacing on a feather. Blue birds, either solid blue, or partly blue such as Blue Light Brown or Blue Golden, do not breed true; they are heterozygous. They breed black-blue-blue splash (in the case of Blue Light Brown x Blue Light Brown, breeding would yield 25% Light Brown, 50% Blue Light Brown, and 25% Blue Light Brown Splash). Most blue parts of the birds are supposed to be laced.

3. Blue (non-laced) - referred to as a self color in the British Standard. This blue is exactly the same as the above #2 laced blue except that the gene that causes the lacing is missing in this non-laced blue variety. The same is true in Holland: they have a non-laced blue variety. It is still heterozygous, breeding black-blue-splash and the blue color can still vary from almost black to the palest blue, with a medium or pigeon blue being preferred. These blue feathers are not laced. They are a self color to the edges.

References:
Bantam Chickens by F.P.Jeffrey. Second edition, 3rd printing.
British Poultry Standard, Fourth Edition, by the Poultry Club of Great Britain.
Creative Poultry Breeding by W. C. Carefoot, M.Sc.,Ph.D.
J. Robert Smyth, Chapter 5 of Poultry Breeding and Genetics, Dr. R.D. Crawford, 1993.
N.H.D.B. - Standard. Standard of Holland. Printed by the Poultry Association of Holland.
Mrs. A. C. Banning-Vopelpoel, personal communication, 1995.

 

[lildinkem]

Very good reading. I think we may be gettin a glimpse of the day where these Lavs are accepted by the APA. IF their talking terminology, how much longer will it be before their accepted? I know I may be over reading inbetween the lines. But, that is the feeling I am getting. And that is a GREAT FEELING to have!

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
I think a very light blue is more commonly confused than a washed splash, as they tend to have a white background. Lavender was bred into blue silkies quite a few years ago. I don't really know why. My first splash (3rd silkie) was a self-blue as well as splash. This was long before I had an even basic understanding of genetics, and it took me quite a while to understand.

 

[robin416]

TG, there you are. I couldn't figure out what it was I said wrong, them blam there is was I said splash and not light blue.

Good thing you're around Suze. I get the premise. But don't make me talk about genetics because I'll fall flat on my face every time.

I know why they did it, the color is pretty. I prefer light colored birds which explain all the whites I have. The lavender fits right in there.