Genetics question regarding mutt birds 😁

[NatJ]

the red chick appears to have a pea comb...Would light coloration, a pea comb, and heavily feathered legs mean heavier influence from mom and therefore a cockerel?

You can only sex chicks by genes on the Z sex chromosome, or by traits that look different in male vs. female even when they have the same genes. (Examples of those traits: breast color in duckwing-colored chickens, comb size & color, pointy saddle feathers in males but not in females.)

The genes for pea comb and leg feathering are not on the Z chromosome, so they cannot be used for sexing.

Having a pea comb vs. a walnut comb in this case depends on what comb gene came from the father. A walnut comb is genetically pea and rose, so the chick with the big wide comb would have the pea gene from its mother, with the rose and possibly also pea gene from the father. The red chick with the pea comb would have not-rose from the father.

All the single-comb birds, and the pea comb hen, are pure for the not-rose gene. So the only unknown here: does the Ameraucana-Silkie mix have two copies of the rose comb gene, or does he have rose and not-rose? We can't tell by looking at him, but it affects what comb types he can produce in his chicks.


Light coloration of the skin (legs, etc) might be a sex indicator (mom has the dominant Id gene that causes light skin, and passes it only to her sons.) Or if the sneaky bantam has light legs then he could sire chicks with light legs of both genders.


There are several genes that affect leg feathering, so it's possible the Brahma hen has two or more of them, and passed more to one chick than to another chick. I think they more-or-less stack: two copies of one leg feathering gene, or one copy each of two leg feathering genes, might look alike; but two copies each of two leg feathering genes would produce heavier feathering on the legs.

Argh, I need more terminology for the leg feathering.
A locus is a specific place on the chromosome. The barring gene exists at the "barring locus." The pea comb gene exists at the "pea comb locus."

The different variants are called "alleles." For pea comb, one allele is the pea comb gene, the other allele is the not-pea form. A chicken can have exactly two alleles, and either they match or they do not. So a chicken can have pea/pea, pea/not-pea, not-pea/not-pea.

A locus can have more than two alleles. The Id locus (light skin) has at least 4 alleles. The most dominant one causes light skin (your hen has this.) All of the other ones allow dark skin, although they express a bit differently (which is how people figured out there are more than one of them.)

With feathered feet, there are at least two alleles at one locus: one causes feathered feet, one does not.
And there are at least two alleles at another locus, also with one causing feathered feet and one not.
A chicken that has the feathered-foot alleles at each locus can have a total of 4 genes for feathered feet. As far as I can tell, the effects stack: more feathered foot genes, heavier feathering on the feet.
(There might be more than two loci, or more than two alleles, but two is enough to make my point.)

So if the Brahma hen has genes for feathered feet at more than one locus, but also has some genes for not-feathered feet, she might pass on feathered feet at each locus to one chick, but feathered feet at only one locus to another chick. That would cause different amounts of foot feathering in the two chicks.

And of course, any chick that gets foot feathering genes from the father as well as the mother would be likely to have more total foot feather genes, and thus heavier feathering on the feet, than a chick that gets them from just one parent.

 

[NatJ]

I've seen photos of roos where I believe dad was Ayam Cemani and mom was some sort of light bird and a fibro roo resulted but those might have been rare. Or not....since AC roo sires probably had 2 copies of fibro gene? Not sure that's how it works. Regardless, hoping that the statistics are in my favor!

In those cases, if the father was Ayam Cemani (two copies of fibro, two copies of id+ that allows fibro to show), then he would give each chick one copy of fibro, and one copy of id+

Each chick would get one copy of not-fibro from the mother, which is recessive and doesn't matter here.

Daughters would have id+ on the Z chromosome from their father, and a W chromosome from their mother, so of course the fibro could show on them.

But sons should not show fibro unless they got id+ from their mother as well as their father.
If the mother was any breed with slate or willow shanks, she would also be id+ and could give it to her son. Hamburgs, Ameraucanas, and some other breeds have slate or willow legs (id+), as do many Easter Eggers. So a cross of Ayam Cemani with any of those "light" breeds (no fibro) would still allow fibro to show in both genders of offspring.

 

[NatJ]

Wondering now if dead chick was a cockerel with its light skin color and clean legs since mom was the Braekel/sexlink.

That seems likely, but not certain.
Yes, clean legs strongly suggest the clean-legged rooster was the father.
But since the sneaky bantam has lightly feathered feet, he might also have the genes for clean feet, so he might be able to sire clean-footed chicks (with light legs).

I don't remember if you said what comb type the dead chick had? If it has a single comb, we still don't know for sure who the father is. But if it had any other type of comb, the father would have to be the Ameraucana/Silkie.

 

[renk777]

That seems likely, but not certain.
Yes, clean legs strongly suggest the clean-legged rooster was the father.
But since the sneaky bantam has lightly feathered feet, he might also have the genes for clean feet, so he might be able to sire clean-footed chicks (with light legs).

I don't remember if you said what comb type the dead chick had? If it has a single comb, we still don't know for sure who the father is. But if it had any other type of comb, the father would have to be the Ameraucana/Silkie.

All of your info is amazing! TY! I fear I'll have to reread and take notes and such to fully comprehend. I probably should have explained what I meant by 2 copies but it doesn't matter...it's still wong haha. I've tried to really read and comprehend info others have given me over the years regarding chicken genetics but my brain just doesn't cooperate. But what you wrote is so detailed that it might be the foundation I need to finally start absorbing chicken genetics just a little. Thinking I'll revisit old questions and see if i can see responses in a new light. I'm so grateful for the time you took to write all of that!

 

[renk777]

That seems likely, but not certain.
Yes, clean legs strongly suggest the clean-legged rooster was the father.
But since the sneaky bantam has lightly feathered feet, he might also have the genes for clean feet, so he might be able to sire clean-footed chicks (with light legs).

I don't remember if you said what comb type the dead chick had? If it has a single comb, we still don't know for sure who the father is. But if it had any other type of comb, the father would have to be the Ameraucana/Silkie.

And sadly, I don't remember what comb the little dead chicken had. I don't usually put meat in the compost but I just couldn't throw the little thing out. But I doubt I'd be able to see anything at this point. It wasn't ready to hatch yet though so perhaps comb was underdeveloped and under a swath of wet down and that's why I didn't notice :'(

 

[NatJ]

All of your info is amazing! TY! I fear I'll have to reread and take notes and such to fully comprehend.

I knew it was a bunch to dump on you at once

I've tried to really read and comprehend info others have given me over the years regarding chicken genetics but my brain just doesn't cooperate. But what you wrote is so detailed that it might be the foundation I need to finally start absorbing chicken genetics just a little. Thinking I'll revisit old questions and see if i can see responses in a new light. I'm so grateful for the time you took to write all of that!

It's funny how the same thing can be clear or confusing, just by getting explained differently. I've also noticed the "best" explanation varies from one person to another. Of course my explanations are based on how it makes sense to me

Recently, I make a lot of use of this page when I want to double-check what a gene does:
http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page3.html
It's got a list of genes and a bit about each one, and for each locus it lists all the alleles in a row.

But when I first started, it wasn't much help, because I didn't understand some of the terms they used, or the descriptions were too short and I didn't know what they were leaving out.

So I picked up bits from a bunch of other sources, and it gradually started to make more sense. Not all of the other sources were about chickens, either-- many things work the same way in other animals and even plants (dogs, horses, pea plants, pepper plants, etc.) Things like dominant, incomplete dominant, recessive, inheriting one gene from each parent, and alleles at a locus are fairly consistent across many species.

For me, it kind of snowballed over time: the more I understood, the easier it was to understand new information.

 

[HeatherKellyB]

Wow! @NatJ you've shared some incredibly helpful and informative stuff here! Thank you!!! Genetics has always been confusing to me, but you've got a way with words that makes it a little easier to grasp. Thanks again!

 

[renk777]

I knew it was a bunch to dump on you at once


It's funny how the same thing can be clear or confusing, just by getting explained differently. I've also noticed the "best" explanation varies from one person to another. Of course my explanations are based on how it makes sense to me

Recently, I make a lot of use of this page when I want to double-check what a gene does:
http://kippenjungle.nl/sellers/page3.html
It's got a list of genes and a bit about each one, and for each locus it lists all the alleles in a row.

But when I first started, it wasn't much help, because I didn't understand some of the terms they used, or the descriptions were too short and I didn't know what they were leaving out.

So I picked up bits from a bunch of other sources, and it gradually started to make more sense. Not all of the other sources were about chickens, either-- many things work the same way in other animals and even plants (dogs, horses, pea plants, pepper plants, etc.) Things like dominant, incomplete dominant, recessive, inheriting one gene from each parent, and alleles at a locus are fairly consistent across many species.

For me, it kind of snowballed over time: the more I understood, the easier it was to understand new information.

My only issue is time....my husband has 3 jobs and is going for his Masters. I have a p/t job and I homeschool our 3 kids and take care of a literal zoo of animals. No time to list. I dream of reading...anything and everything ...but at the end of the day, I'm always so tired. Kids are 13, 10, & 10 so maybe over the next few years, I'll have a little more free time! As for the chicken saga, another of Braekel/sexlink's eggs cracked and opened. Chick is fully formed and dead. Her shells just don't seem to be very strong. 2 eggs left....1 from each hen. Broody is getting up a lot today to tend to the hatched chicks so I'm worried about the last 2 eggs shrink wrapping. One has been pipped since yesterday but hasn't hatched yet. I'll wait until tonight and see if it's out. Thinking I might set up incubator just in case she abandons nest...I can hatch them in bator and then just place under her. She hatched out 13 bantam eggs last year...not a single one cracked. She's a good mom but she's had a lot against her this year....eggs that were laid over the span of a week, not being separated from flock and dealing with box bullies, yolked eggs, crushed eggs, etc. All things considered, she's a trooper. Hoping she can get last 2 to hatch.

 

[NatJ]

My only issue is time....my husband has 3 jobs and is going for his Masters. I have a p/t job and I homeschool our 3 kids and take care of a literal zoo of animals. No time to list. I dream of reading...anything and everything ...but at the end of the day, I'm always so tired.

Yes, it's really hard when you have so much going on.

I did not learn this genetics stuff overnight. I've been picking up bits here and there for several decades, although I think my knowledge did take a big jump when I once had a few months with less going on. But intermittent interest and scattered bits of time do add up, even though it doesn't feel that way while it is happening.

As for the chicken saga, another of Braekel/sexlink's eggs cracked and opened. Chick is fully formed and dead.

Anything interesting about the appearance of that one?

Thinking I might set up incubator just in case she abandons nest...I can hatch them in bator and then just place under her.

That might be a good idea, given what you've described (assuming the other eggs are still alive at present.)

 

[renk777]

Yes, it's really hard when you have so much going on.

I did not learn this genetics stuff overnight. I've been picking up bits here and there for several decades, although I think my knowledge did take a big jump when I once had a few months with less going on. But intermittent interest and scattered bits of time do add up, even though it doesn't feel that way while it is happening.



Anything interesting about the appearance of that one?


That might be a good idea, given what you've described (assuming the other eggs are still alive at present.)

I haven't taken dead chick out of shell yet. When kids get home around 1 pm, I'll let them be present. Since we homeschool, everything is a teachable moment and they love the BraekelX hen. Since it's her baby, they'll want to say goodbye. I'll try to see what comb type it has. Other than that, it looks much like the other one that passed....light down and skin. If I'd checked sooner, perhaps I could have saved it. But I'm trying to give broody space and only disturb 2x a day when I check water / feed /etc :'(