Genetics Question:

[punky rooster]

Quote:
Do you base all your knowledge on probability and theoretical assumptions, or do you actually gather scientific facts and numbers? Im just curious because you have no experience with the Dorking breed. I do not even see a Dorking on your website. You sure know alot about the breed to not own one. Just saying.

It is fact that most dorkings are hatchery based.
I looked on your site, Your males look to have good color, not sure on shape (I think its good), but the biggest thing I noticed was the White ish ear lobes. You will have to work on that if you want to have a top line.
Over all a very nice start, good luck to ya! If I start a project it will be with dorkings.

 

[Chris09]

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Just because a person doesn't own a Dorking doesn't mean they don't know the Genetic make up of the breed.
Half the people that own the Dorking breed don't know the Genetic make up of the breed.

Here is a good site that you can read about Genetics.
http://sellers.kippenjungle.nl/page0.html


Chris

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
Actually, those traits ARE in the new chicken calculator.

Five Toes is a dominant trait. Often Silkie crosses don't pass it on to others because hatchery quality Silkies, which are pretty common, only have one five toes allele, thus passing it on to 50% of the offspring.

WhiteMountainsRanch - It isn't that simple. Because a bird may look like, say, a brown-red, does not mean it is. . .

Also, there are a lot of colors out there not on the "show examples" section.



Silver Dorking x Production Red = moderate sized, 5 toed birds that have coloration very similar to Easter Eggers. They'll be white in color (but the males will be gold and red, too) and have a lot of black pencilling on their bodies. Some will look quite a bit like Light Columbians in color.

Silver Dorking x Black Sex Link = moderate sized, 5 toed birds that are mostly black with bits of silver in the neck, possibly extending out to the rest of the body, too.

Your Silver Dorking may possibly also only pass his 5 toes on to 50/50 of the offspring, as he is hatchery based as well. Hatchery birds are never 100% true to type, including traits like five toes.

Also, polydactyly (extra toes) is a very variable trait. A bird with one gene may express five toes on each foot, or five one one or... A bird with two copies can express 5 toes, or six toes, or ... I have a very cute 12 toed chick.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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Ummm, you asked a question, Ilia answered, and then you proceeded to dispute her answers and knowledge. She merely answered the points you raised. I do not always agree with Illia, but she has a good basing in poultry genetics and breeding, and I do respect her and her opinions.

 

[spiritdance]

Quote:
Ummm, you asked a question, Ilia answered, and then you proceeded to dispute her answers and knowledge. She merely answered the points you raised. I do not always agree with Illia, but she has a good basing in poultry genetics and breeding, and I do respect her and her opinions.

Couldn't she just as easily have written "if your bird has only one gene for polydactylism..." instead of writing "hatchery"? Sorry, but there does seem to be a pervasive - not always blatant, but still there - attitude about hatcheries that creeps into many of these threads. I appreciate all the time and effort that people put into their sq birds, and in fact am working on building a sq line of Dutch bantams myself, but many people just want to enjoy their birds and don't need their origins constantly called into question. I don't think any harm was intended with the hatchery comment, but it does reflect the attitude that all "imperfect" birds come from hatcheries, and all hatcheries produce "imperfect" birds ... not only hatcheries produce Dorkings that are heterozygous for polydactylism, so the assumption was in fact not supported by the "facts" as they exist. I'm just saying ...

 

[Jan336]

Quote:
Ummm, you asked a question, Ilia answered, and then you proceeded to dispute her answers and knowledge. She merely answered the points you raised. I do not always agree with Illia, but she has a good basing in poultry genetics and breeding, and I do respect her and her opinions.

Ummmmmmm, I did ask a question. She went off the topic. I did not dispute her answers because they were not topic related. I did however challenge her knowledge of the Dorking breed. I would value someone's knowledge if they based it owning or breeding Dorkings. Thank you for entering the debate and raising the misconception awareness.

 

[Jan336]

Quote:
Ummm, you asked a question, Ilia answered, and then you proceeded to dispute her answers and knowledge. She merely answered the points you raised. I do not always agree with Illia, but she has a good basing in poultry genetics and breeding, and I do respect her and her opinions.

Couldn't she just as easily have written "if your bird has only one gene for polydactylism..." instead of writing "hatchery"? Sorry, but there does seem to be a pervasive - not always blatant, but still there - attitude about hatcheries that creeps into many of these threads. I appreciate all the time and effort that people put into their sq birds, and in fact am working on building a sq line of Dutch bantams myself, but many people just want to enjoy their birds and don't need their origins constantly called into question. I don't think any harm was intended with the hatchery comment, but it does reflect the attitude that all "imperfect" birds come from hatcheries, and all hatcheries produce "imperfect" birds ... not only hatcheries produce Dorkings that are heterozygous for polydactylism, so the assumption was in fact not supported by the "facts" as they exist. I'm just saying ...

Thank you. That was my point several posts back--->

 

[Jan336]

People need to get a grip on this "HATCHERY" bandwagon issue. Who really cares if a bird originated or has lines traced back to a hatchery? (For the record, mine came from a private breeder here in the Carolinas)

Have any of you done any genetic testing on yourselves?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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Do you count that both my brother and I look like our mother's side of the family, as do all our kids? My brother had childhood asthma; I have adult onset asthma, and 4 out of 5 of our kids also have asthma to some degree; as best as we can tell, that came from our father's side. My kids and my steps and grandkids all have their father's/grandfather's eye shape, and most have his nose (which was also his mother's)? I'm too old for more human breeding "experiments." lol.

Now all of THAT is very off-topic, lol.


There is nothing wrong with a hatchery bird, and I do not think that most breeders or exhibitor believe that there is. HOWEVER, a hatchery bird is RARELY a good candidate for EXHIBITION, and rarely meets the standard. Hatchery birds are bred for PRODUCTION, and for that they are usually BETTER than birds bred for appearance. The one exception that I would make is breeds who lay coloured eggs (blue or dark brown); breeders usually pay more attention to egg colour than do hatcheries. I deliberately left out green as that is not a colour for exhibition birds. However, there are a lot of backyard breeders who take great pride in the colour of their green eggs.

There is as much discrimination against those of us who keep our birds for reasons other than laying or meat as there is against those who have hatchery/feedstore birds.

Since the dorking was being paired with production reds and sex-links, it seems pretty reasonable to assume that it is likely a hatchery bird, and that does not even take into consideration the source of most dorkings.

 

[Ridgerunner]

There are lots of misconceptions out there about a lot of topics. If you look at the 4th page of this thread, you will see how one hatchery handles breeding to the SOP. They select breeders to the SOP, but they pen breed instead of pairing one rooster with one or two carefully selected hens, so quality control in the breeding is not real rigorous. This means that they may have a couple hundred chickens in the same breeding pen, with a ratio of 1 rooster for every 10 hens. Which rooster breeds with which hen is not controlled at all. I think Teri does a good job of describing her target audience. It is not people that want show quality chickens. Her post is not about all the different hatcheries. It is about one hatchery in particular.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=450193

Even a good breeder hatches out a lot of chicks that do not meet the SOP, if the SOP is even his goal. Some breeders have goals other than the SOP. (I know one that is developing a line of six-toed Cochin, and it is not Sonoran Silkies.) They hatch out a whole lot of chicks and select only the ones that have the traits they want. And which ones they select depends on their goals and how good they are. It is also not that unusual for a breeder of championship show chickens to introduce other blood into his line to bring in a trait he wants. Grand Champion show chickens are not always purebreds, purebred meaning they always breed true. After a few generations of line breeding, they get back to a pretty much purebred line, but it takes a few generations of very carefully selecting your breeders.

Chicken genetics can get complicated pretty quickly. You can have dominant genes, recessive genes, or inclomplete dominant genes. If two genes are present, each may partially express itself. Black with black equals black. Splash with splash equals splash. Black with splash equals blue. Incomplete dominance.

If chickens are pure for a trait you can pretty much determine what they will produce when paired with other chickens that are also pure. But a lot of times, recessive genes are hiding under dominant genes. Nobody knows they are there until something totally unexpected shows up. Even with carefull selection of breeders, those recessives can hide for generations.

Whether hatchery bred or breeder bred does not assure that there are no recessives hiding in there. Nor does it assure that some are.