German New Hampshire

[kathyinmo]

Quote:

MALE
HEAD: Plumage, Brilliant reddish bay.
NECK: Hackle-- lustrous, golden bay.
BACK: Brilliant deep chestnut red.
Saddle -- lustrous, golden bay, slightly darker than hackle.
TAIL: Main Tail -- black
Sickles -- rich, lustrous, greenish black.
Coverts -- lustrous, greenish black, edged with deep chestnut red.
Lesser Coverts -- deep chestnut red.
WINGS: Fronts -- medium chestnut red.
Bows-- brilliant deep chestnut red.
Coverts -- deep chestnut red.
Primaries -- upper web, medium red, lower web, black edged with medium red. Primary coverts, black, edged with medium red.
Secondaries -- upper web, medium chestnut red, having broad black stripe extending along shaft to within one inch of tip; lower web medium chestnut red; shaft, red.
BREAST: Medium chestnut red.
BODY AND FLUFF: Medium chestnut red.
LEGS AND TOES: Lower Thighs-- medium chestnut red.
Shanks and toes-- rich yellow tinged with reddish horn. A line of reddish pigment down sides of shanks extending to tips of toes is desirable.
UNDERCOLOR OF ALL SECTIONS: Light salmon.

In the description of the male....... compare it to this bird. What are your thoughts on this color issue?

 

[ChickenManHorton]

Thanks for the post Matt. I think that you are correct in everything that you stated. There are some great American New Hamps. out there we just have to find them. Most of the old time Breeders do not have internet or email and that makes finding them much harder. I will continue to help you and all of us find the really good ones and use them for breeding~!
John

 

[Matt1616]

Kathy, with the black tipping on the hens...I have been told that they should have 3 rows of consistent, defined ticking. I don't know how much the deduction would be if they had 5 rows or 1 row but I think the goal is 3 well defined rows.
The male, I feel like he is pretty close to the standard as far as what the color standard says but I'm almost sure they would say he is to dark in the back and wing bow/coverts. One thing that the gentleman told me about evaluating the length of back and correct arrangement of color on the back is to look straight down on the bird from above and you should see 2 distinct color changes and 3 different colors. He said there should be a defined line where the "golden bay" hackle/cape changes to the "deep chestnut red" on the back and then a distinct line where the "deep chestnut red' changes to the "golden bay, slightly darker than the hackle" in the saddle feathers. This bird has the dark on the back leaking back into the saddle feathers and he is short of back because the hackle/cape feathers are almost touching the the saddle feathers on the side. I guess the saddle feathers are also to light. I am certainly no expert but that is what I was told.

 

[kathyinmo]

Kathy, with the black tipping on the hens...I have been told that they should have 3 rows of consistent, defined ticking. I don't know how much the deduction would be if they had 5 rows or 1 row but I think the goal is 3 well defined rows.
The male, I feel like he is pretty close to the standard as far as what the color standard says but I'm almost sure they would say he is to dark in the back and wing bow/coverts. One thing that the gentleman told me about evaluating the length of back and correct arrangement of color on the back is to look straight down on the bird from above and you should see 2 distinct color changes and 3 different colors. He said there should be a defined line where the "golden bay" hackle/cape changes to the "deep chestnut red" on the back and then a distinct line where the "deep chestnut red' changes to the "golden bay, slightly darker than the hackle" in the saddle feathers. This bird has the dark on the back leaking back into the saddle feathers and he is short of back because the hackle/cape feathers are almost touching the the saddle feathers on the side. I guess the saddle feathers are also to light. I am certainly no expert but that is what I was told.

Thanks, Matt !

Hmmm, I wonder where the 3 well defined rows comes from? In the SOP it says nothing about that, or any specific number.
Interesting!

 

[fowlman01]

Chris, that is something you will have to make a decision on at some point if you decide to show and I guess more importantly if you want to win. I have seen it go both ways, I have seen judges that I felt done a really good job of following the standard and I have seen some that I felt like placed certain birds that were big but had poor type. There are some, not all but some breeds that have gotten a good bit past the standard weight and they do win a lot of times. I have also heard judges saying that certain lines within particular breeds were getting to big and they were going to stop placing them if they didn't bring the size down. I can tell you I would not want to be a poultry judge because you really only have a moment to look at each bird and you are only going to make one person happy and that is the person that wins. I do feel like you really can't take one or two judges opinions and base your breeding program on it because each judge may interpret the standard a little differently and there are many judges. I think all you can really do is read and look at the standard try to comprehend it well and get as many opinions from judges and master breeders as you can and then choose your own direction, stick to it and hope for the best. If you chase trends you will eventually get in trouble because one common thing with trends as they often change.

People visually perceive things differently and so do poultry judges. Newer judges would probably be OK with some of the German birds, because they have never seen the birds that the SOP is describing. There is no way in the world that printing can duplicate actual bird colors. The same is true of our computer monitors.....everyone is a bit different.
Edgar Mongold is a bit direct, but he knows NH's and has seen the birds that are described in the SOP. I have seen them as well but not in the last few years.

Walt

 

[Matt1616]

Agreed Walt, like I said judging is a tough job and I wouldn't want it. I am just trying to breed NH's to the standard because I would like to see them compete for Champion American like they once did. You are right, Ed is very direct but that doesn't bother me...I would rather someone be direct with me than to just say what I want to hear. It is hard to learn from someone that sugar coats everything. As a matter of fact some of the knowledge that I have attained to this point however small that may be, came from Ed. I just wish he would post a little more on some of these threads.

Kathy, I haven't seen the 3 rows in the standard either...that is just what an old breeder told me. I have some with 1 row and I have some with 6-7 rows. I'm not sure I have any with exactly 3 rows.

 

[Chris Herzog]

Guys I agree on the Judging…No way in hell would I want to do that. I also totally understand how one judge could see things different than another, ie color. I guess my point is more less the very obvious items like the size of the bird. If the SOP says 8 pounds than the bird should be 8 pounds not 12 or 14. A judge doesn’t have to be an old timer that has been around and seen the old lines years ago to see this. The ticking is another good example. I don’t have the book in front of me yet so I’ll just go by what you all have posted here. Matt you said you had a judge tell you that 3 rows of ticking is the goal but neither you nor Kathy can find this in the book. To me, that’s more of a personal opinion then what the SOP says. So how to you breed for that? lol! Not trying to be difficult just trying to understand this rational!
Chris

 

[Matt1616]

Chris, I think the picture in the standard basically shows 3 rows of ticking and that is what that was based on. I will have to look at my standard when I get home but I think that is right.

 

[kathyinmo]

Chris, I think the picture in the standard basically shows 3 rows of ticking and that is what that was based on. I will have to look at my standard when I get home but I think that is right.

But, really, this is just an artist's rendition of the SOP.
As I have stated before, I hate don't care for her art work. Sorry......

 

[Matt1616]

Understood Kathy but that picture had to be reviewed by the APA and approved as the "picture" of perfection for a New Hampshire so that is what all New Hampshires will be compared to. If the APA is the governing body and that is what they wanted to represent the breed then I have to accept it as correct.... if not then there is no standard to go by.