getting to a delaware

[Chris09]

just because you breed SQ RIR that dont mean Hatchery RIR are not Real..



anyways he is trying to get to Delaware not SQ NH so NH SOP does not apply here , and when he gets to Delaware I am sure Hardcore breeders will try to down play his effort..

Duckboy the difference between a geneticist as myself and a Breeders like Chris and jeff is that they see breeding their preferred breeds as an Art form, so when asking a genetic question you will need the help of a geneticist. geneticist take it as it is, Pure Science where 2+2 is four, E/eWh x eWh/eWh = 50% E/eWh & 50% eWh/eWh. so when asking genetic question just know who you need to ask said genetic question, when you need help on tail angle, number of points on their single comb, temperament just go ahead and ask the breeders

Quote: Most if not all hatchery Rhode Island Reds have Leghorn bred into them, that and that alone makes them a cross bred.

Again I will ask are your Genotypes U.S. or UK?
Also just because you read about the "genetics" of one bird of a breed does not mean all the birds of that breed are the same.

Chris

 

[DuckBoy]

Okay thanks so much for clearing everything up for me.

 

[DuckBoy]

thanks thats the plan

 

[nicalandia]

thanks thats the plan

just stick to it ok

 

[DuckBoy]

will do

 

[nicalandia]

Most if not all hatchery Rhode Island Reds have Leghorn bred into them, that and that alone makes them a cross bred.

Chris

I know most production type Red Sexlinks(Isa Brown, Hi line Browns) have leghorn blood in them(for obvious reasons) but they are not a direct RIRxLeghorn cross hybrid, their leghorn blood can be traced back a few generations back(great grand parent sires) this is done to not dilute the brown egg shell, and now to the hatchery stock RIR, do they have some leghorn blood in them? sure but tracing their leghorn lineage way more dificult than your average Production Red.. But guess what? even Heritage RIR have leghorn blood in them, but guess what else? most breeds today do, but their leghorn lineage goes way way back on the early age of their history,

are they really a cross breed as in Easter Eggers? I sure hope you are not suggesting that,

Again I will ask are your Genotypes U.S. or UK?

Chris

both genotypes carry the necessary genes to recreate the Delaware, which genes are that? eWh(Wheaten) Co(Columbian restrictor) w(yellow skin) p+(single comb) the rest of the genes like s+(recessive sex linked gold) Mh(Mahogany) DK1(autosomal Pheomelanin enhancers) and any genes relevant genes need it for a dark dark Phenotype

what genes does the UK have that the US lacks? any important ones to this project(Delaware)?

Also just because you read about the "genetics" of one bird of a breed does not mean all the birds of that breed are the same.

Chris

one word. Homozygosity, example "Cream Chocolate Partridge" Wyandotte any self respecting breeds should always aim at that, if not they could run the risk of being called "Cross Breeds"


Edit. Homozygosity is not the same as Inbreeding depression , heterosis can still be achieved by crossing two distantly related lines while keeping Homozygosity at the phenotype/Genotype level

 

[Chris09]

I know most production type Red Sexlinks(Isa Brown, Hi line Browns) have leghorn blood in them(for obvious reasons) but they are not a direct RIRxLeghorn cross hybrid, their leghorn blood can be traced back a few generations back(great grand parent sires) this is done to not dilute the brown egg shell, and now to the hatchery stock RIR, do they have some leghorn blood in them? sure but tracing their leghorn lineage way more dificult than your average Production Red.. But guess what? even Heritage RIR have leghorn blood in them, but guess what else? most breeds today do, but their leghorn lineage goes way way back on the early age of their history,

are they really a cross breed as in Easter Eggers? I sure hope you are not suggesting that,



both genotypes carry the necessary genes to recreate the Delaware, which genes are that? eWh(Wheaten) Co(Columbian restrictor) w(yellow skin) p+(single comb) the rest of the genes like s+(recessive sex linked gold) Mh(Mahogany) DK1(autosomal Pheomelanin enhancers) and any genes relevant genes need it for a dark dark Phenotype

what genes does the UK have that the US lacks? any important ones to this project(Delaware)?


one word. Homozygosity, example "Cream Chocolate Partridge" Wyandotte any self respecting breeds should always aim at that, if not they could run the risk of being called "Cross Breeds"

Quote: You may want to look into history of the True Heritage U.S. Rhode Island Red I think you will find that there is NO Leghorn blood in the True Heritage Rhode Island Red.
Now if you have some document, or study that proves that the U.S. Rhode Island Red does indeed have Leghorn in please posted it and I will be happy to read it.



Quote: I didn't say the U.K. Rhode Island Red lack anything.
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Now of the genes you say are in the Rhode Island Red, which of then will cause the Rhode Island Red to through a "Red Splash White" which was documented in the 1930's and of those genes which of them will give a Blue/Grey bar at the base of the red feathers, now lastly which of them will restrict the Black in the hackles of the Rhode Island Red Male but leaving the Black in the wings and tail?

I may be wrong but I think you might be missing a hidden gene or two.

Chris

 

[nicalandia]

You may want to look into history of the True Heritage U.S. Rhode Island Red I think you will find that there is NO Leghorn blood in the True Heritage Rhode Island Red.
Now if you have some document, or study that proves that the U.S. Rhode Island Red does indeed have Leghorn in please posted it and I will be happy to read it.


Chris

Documents that Old are quite Rare, but I dont see you guys disputing this statement source https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/407294/the-heritage-rhode-island-red-site/1310#post_9142507

I had problems now and then in the heat of summer with a few that went broody. I did not breed from them again .If I pushed them hard as I did ten years ago for egg production that two hundered eggs per pullet year it was not common. This year I have my old white rock large fowl back and two hens went broody they have lost their high egg production like I had in the Reds and so it happens with them. Maybe in the mid west or up north it is less popular. Down here where it gets hot it can happen. I would not loose a lot of sleep over it right now. Try try to get a good strain of Brick shaped Reds and improve them for type only. Worry about broodiness and color in five years from now. You got plenty of time for that minor stuff. Or dilemma is to get you beginners to learn how to breed for type first and not the other stuff other wise we are never going to get this old breed back to the level it once was.

However, if you want non broodiness the ones that are advertised in the back of Mother Earth News don't have those traits. A lot of people like those kind of reds. They are more popular than the old Heritage Rhode Island Red that I promote. I am thinking of getting me some next year to sell on EBay. I will make a fortune. bob

Edit Note: I just got a message from a beginner who is good at finding information about breeds. She sent me some inforamation I have been working on production reds and how they got stated. Here is a stateent that she sent me from the web site. It also, shows a little information on broodness. This is the best message i ever got on what i am working on. The term I have never heard of befor is called Cherry Eggers. This is what is confushing these beginners who think they got Rhode Island Reds.
Rhode Island Red Chicken (Non-Industrial)


The Rhode Island Red is not only America's best known breed, but is perhaps the world's best known fowl. It is the most successful dual purpose bird, and remains an excellent farm chicken. Originally developed in Massachusetts and Rhode Island in the 1880's and 1890's, its ancestors include Malay (hence the deep color), Shanghai, Java, and Brown Leghorn chickens. Its distinctive color and good production qualities helped it to spread rapidly. The single combed variety was admitted to the American Poultry Association's Standard of Perfection in 1904 and the rose combed birds were accepted a year later in 1905.


The originators of the Rhode Island Red wanted to create a bird that could lay a good number of eggs yet dress out nicely as a table bird. These birds are very good layers of brown eggs, perhaps the best layers of all of the dual-purpose breeds. They can lay 200 – 300 eggs a year starting as early as six months of age. Since the 1940's, the Rhode Island Red has been selectively bred for more efficient egg production, becoming smaller, lighter colored, and less broody as a result. Of greatest conservation interest are the "old-type" Rhode Island Reds which are larger, darker, and more broody. These birds are becoming rare as the breed is “improved” to meet industry needs.


The hens of this breed weigh over 6 pounds and the roosters over 8 pounds. The Rhode Island Red is known for its hardiness and its ability to handle marginal conditions while still producing eggs. Some roosters may be aggressive at times. Most hens are peaceful and can become broody except within the strains that have been heavily selected for egg production



bob

Now of the genes you say are in the Rhode Island Red, which of then will cause the Rhode Island Red to through a "Red Splash White" which was documented in the 1930's
I may be wrong but I think you might be missing a hidden gene or two.

Chris

do you mean like this? or do you have pics of such event? if this is that then its normal juvenile wheaten underfluff

those genes which of them will give a Blue/Grey bar at the base of the red feathers

Chris

of this gene I´m not well aware, pics please and I´ll ask around, not all phenotype expression is due to one single gene, the acomulation of other genes may be at play on some of those patterns

lastly which of them will restrict the Black in the hackles of the Rhode Island Red Male but leaving the Black in the wings and tail?

Chris

Mahogany is also a Columbian restrictor(not as powerful as co or Db)

Minor columbian Restrictors that my be found on NH(except for Db)

I may be wrong but I think you might be missing a hidden gene or two.

Chris

a gene or Two? thats been nice, most hidden genes are undocumented and work as polygenic traits(many genes working together) so we may never know, but this is not important for this Delaware project

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I have a local kid who is interested in making some good quality delewares. I told him how to go about doing it, but I think I'll just refer him to this thread.

 

[nicalandia]

I have a local kid who is interested in making some good quality delewares. I told him how to go about doing it, but I think I'll just refer him to this thread.

what did you tell him buddy?