Great Pyr Puppy Problem
- Thread starter pmhobia
- Start date
If I am reading this correctly, you got the puppy when it was only 6 weeks old? It is never recommended to remove a puppy from it mother and siblings at such a young age because you have deprived it of necessary socialization...basically learning how to be a dog. As a matter of fact, it is illegal in some places to sell a puppy at that age. I think your puppy may have issues because of this since a mother dog certainly wouldn't have tolerated it either. I wish you luck in whatever method you use to help her.
firstly, this doesnt sound like handler agression...this sounds like puppy domnance...and frustration
this dog was taken form its mother too early, puppies legally should be left with their mother untill 8 weeks of age minimum, but studies have shown, even for LGDS its actually better to leave puppy wiht mother and siblings untill 10-12 weks of age as theres alot of critical learning down betwen 6 and 12 weeks...
primarily...
BITE INHIBITION!
unfortunatly, being taken from mother and siblings at 6 weeks of age this puppy hasnt had any formal training from its mother in bite inhibition...aka "doggy manners" so now you get to start from square one with a uppy whod essentially eb considered "the slow kid" its not that the dog is broken or a lost cause or automatically going to be evil when it matures....its that this dog has missed a critical learning period with its CANINE family...so now you have to fill in that gap as best as you can as a human.
now my personal training belifs are we are not dogs, puppies know we are not dogs and trying to disiplin how yout THINK a mothr dog would issnt going to work...
ive used my methods on dogs from chihuahuas to lgd's to wolf hybrids and yes these methods have worked with large exotics...primarily lions, tigers, hyena and african painted dog...
firstly...mother would never scruff and shake, EVER...dogs shake to KILL, its never a disiplinary method, do you realy want to teach a dog with the potential to kill someone that humans are trying to kill it? in my opinion no...not even remotly the goal, youll likely end up with a very insecure and very dangerous adult with those methods.
scruffing should be a short sharp shock, you scruff quick, a quick "bite" and then let go. its like a spank on a child, whats more effective, one quick sudden shock or sitting there beating the snot out of them?!
now for mouthing...i typically practice the "end game" method...in a normal family dynamic if puppies play too rough, the game is ended with a yelp and no interaction...puppies crave attention and by ending the gam puppy leanrs pretty quickly, when i bite my brother or sister or mommy...all fun stops...
being that we are human i dont allow ANY teeth on skin EVER...were too fragile a species and accidents can happen, so when game turns into nipping, the game stops, make a sudden loud sound, a yelp, a strong NO, something, stand up cross your arms and turn away.
once puppy stops trying offer puppy a toy they CAN put their teeth on.
if puppy continues trying to be moughty (pant legs jumping ect) remove puppy from the situation into a "time out" a crate, stall ect, keep it short though, like a toddler they have the attention span of a peanut and if you leave puppy sitting there for 30 mins itll have NO lcue why its there anymore.
my max is 10 mins for time outs, but with pups i do 2-5 mins. let them calm down and then resume play with dog safe toys.
teeth start to try for flesh, repeat.
puppy will very quickly learn that teeth on people skin = ALL STOP...
you MUST be consistent.
now pups with dominant personalites, like yours sounds ot have often get frustrated when these games get stopped...this often happens whn theyve been alloowed to be mouthy for a few mins then suddenly the game is over, they dont understand eactly why the game stopped (this is why you must do it imediatly if teeth touch skin every time) and they get frustrated.
there also testing boundries...are you "mommy" or are you "sibling" mommas responce to that kind of agression would be to get big and tall, very loud and loom OVER puppy, puppy would typically offer a roll displaying its belly, if not dont ROLL the puppy but encorage puppy to show tummy as often as possible. dogs NEVER forc eachother over unless they intend to kill the one they are rolling so again we go back to the...do you realy want a dog that thinks your trying to kill it?!
youll also want to work on the dominance on a daily basis, make her work for her food, feed her by hand, she needs to knwo YOU provide the food and she has no rights to it unless you let her. you walk ahead of her, always go through doors and gates before her, make her back up or get out of YOUR way never go around her, make her go around you. simply establishing yourself as top dog in the pack
also remember shes a 9week old puppy with more energy than tigger on speed! get her moving, running, playing, find toys she can enjoy and get that puppy moving...a tired puppy is a calm puppy!
also start her on basic obedience, there never too young to learn sit, down, stay, building her confidence and excersizing her mentally will help quell the excess energy that often leads to frustration and mouthyness...
this much is very 100% certain though, YOU need to establish dominance, you dont need ot be rough or physical to do so, simply making her sit before she gets her food, or making her move out of your way are simple daily acts that make a world of difference.
good luck with your baby, and remember that..she is still a BABY!
this dog was taken form its mother too early, puppies legally should be left with their mother untill 8 weeks of age minimum, but studies have shown, even for LGDS its actually better to leave puppy wiht mother and siblings untill 10-12 weks of age as theres alot of critical learning down betwen 6 and 12 weeks...
primarily...
BITE INHIBITION!
unfortunatly, being taken from mother and siblings at 6 weeks of age this puppy hasnt had any formal training from its mother in bite inhibition...aka "doggy manners" so now you get to start from square one with a uppy whod essentially eb considered "the slow kid" its not that the dog is broken or a lost cause or automatically going to be evil when it matures....its that this dog has missed a critical learning period with its CANINE family...so now you have to fill in that gap as best as you can as a human.
now my personal training belifs are we are not dogs, puppies know we are not dogs and trying to disiplin how yout THINK a mothr dog would issnt going to work...
ive used my methods on dogs from chihuahuas to lgd's to wolf hybrids and yes these methods have worked with large exotics...primarily lions, tigers, hyena and african painted dog...
firstly...mother would never scruff and shake, EVER...dogs shake to KILL, its never a disiplinary method, do you realy want to teach a dog with the potential to kill someone that humans are trying to kill it? in my opinion no...not even remotly the goal, youll likely end up with a very insecure and very dangerous adult with those methods.
scruffing should be a short sharp shock, you scruff quick, a quick "bite" and then let go. its like a spank on a child, whats more effective, one quick sudden shock or sitting there beating the snot out of them?!
now for mouthing...i typically practice the "end game" method...in a normal family dynamic if puppies play too rough, the game is ended with a yelp and no interaction...puppies crave attention and by ending the gam puppy leanrs pretty quickly, when i bite my brother or sister or mommy...all fun stops...
being that we are human i dont allow ANY teeth on skin EVER...were too fragile a species and accidents can happen, so when game turns into nipping, the game stops, make a sudden loud sound, a yelp, a strong NO, something, stand up cross your arms and turn away.
once puppy stops trying offer puppy a toy they CAN put their teeth on.
if puppy continues trying to be moughty (pant legs jumping ect) remove puppy from the situation into a "time out" a crate, stall ect, keep it short though, like a toddler they have the attention span of a peanut and if you leave puppy sitting there for 30 mins itll have NO lcue why its there anymore.
my max is 10 mins for time outs, but with pups i do 2-5 mins. let them calm down and then resume play with dog safe toys.
teeth start to try for flesh, repeat.
puppy will very quickly learn that teeth on people skin = ALL STOP...
you MUST be consistent.
now pups with dominant personalites, like yours sounds ot have often get frustrated when these games get stopped...this often happens whn theyve been alloowed to be mouthy for a few mins then suddenly the game is over, they dont understand eactly why the game stopped (this is why you must do it imediatly if teeth touch skin every time) and they get frustrated.
there also testing boundries...are you "mommy" or are you "sibling" mommas responce to that kind of agression would be to get big and tall, very loud and loom OVER puppy, puppy would typically offer a roll displaying its belly, if not dont ROLL the puppy but encorage puppy to show tummy as often as possible. dogs NEVER forc eachother over unless they intend to kill the one they are rolling so again we go back to the...do you realy want a dog that thinks your trying to kill it?!
youll also want to work on the dominance on a daily basis, make her work for her food, feed her by hand, she needs to knwo YOU provide the food and she has no rights to it unless you let her. you walk ahead of her, always go through doors and gates before her, make her back up or get out of YOUR way never go around her, make her go around you. simply establishing yourself as top dog in the pack
also remember shes a 9week old puppy with more energy than tigger on speed! get her moving, running, playing, find toys she can enjoy and get that puppy moving...a tired puppy is a calm puppy!
also start her on basic obedience, there never too young to learn sit, down, stay, building her confidence and excersizing her mentally will help quell the excess energy that often leads to frustration and mouthyness...
this much is very 100% certain though, YOU need to establish dominance, you dont need ot be rough or physical to do so, simply making her sit before she gets her food, or making her move out of your way are simple daily acts that make a world of difference.
good luck with your baby, and remember that..she is still a BABY!
I should also add, nose-tapping for chewing is ineffective and is probably what triggered the aggressive response. Re-direction is much better. Have a few toys that are acceptable to chew and when the pup chews something inappropriate, just say "NO" sternly and replace the item with something they CAN chew on. Because the pup was removed so early, it is lacking in some of the behaviors that it should have learned with Mother and siblings. Be very firm, but very patient with it. Consistency is everything. A dog's world is black and white. Something is O.K. or it's NOT O.K. Dogs don't understand "sometimes" or "maybe just this once".
Quote:
No. A mother dog would growl and snap, scruffing is the next best thing. " Insecure and dangerous adult" would not do well in Schutzhund competition, and we've never had one. Scruffing the pup is not a cure-all, everytime they do something wrong action. Only for the most egregious behavior, i.e., putting teeth on you in an aggressive manner, and then only until the pup SUBMITS.
The only thing two dog trainers agree on is that another trainer is wrong!
No. A mother dog would growl and snap, scruffing is the next best thing. " Insecure and dangerous adult" would not do well in Schutzhund competition, and we've never had one. Scruffing the pup is not a cure-all, everytime they do something wrong action. Only for the most egregious behavior, i.e., putting teeth on you in an aggressive manner, and then only until the pup SUBMITS.
The only thing two dog trainers agree on is that another trainer is wrong!
- Dec 9, 2008
- 538
- 2
- 139
I would have to agree that you need to really discipline her now for that. Biting can never be tolerated in an LGD. I would have picked her up by the scruff, shook her really hard, then pushed her to the ground while biting her with my hand on the side of the mouth and growling ferociously at her, and sat on top of her to hold her down. She has to learn that it is not acceptable NOW while she is young enough to control. If she has the fear nipping or aggression that continues, she should be destroyed. It's just not acceptable to have 150lb dog that bites. It will kill someone.
Sometimes it is just a genetic flaw in a dog that causes fear nipping or aggression. I would assume it is fear rather than aggression, but if it cannot be completely stopped by the time she is 4-5mo old, she should be destroyed. And if that is the case, it is not your fault, it is just bad genes.
Sometimes it is just a genetic flaw in a dog that causes fear nipping or aggression. I would assume it is fear rather than aggression, but if it cannot be completely stopped by the time she is 4-5mo old, she should be destroyed. And if that is the case, it is not your fault, it is just bad genes.
Quote:
Really? you'd SIT on a 9 week old puppy? I think that might be a little over the top.
Really? you'd SIT on a 9 week old puppy? I think that might be a little over the top.
Quote:
Agree with Okie Amazon 100%. We have raised a few large breed, independent, dominant natured dogs that were raised to be watch dogs. And this was the exact reason we raised them ourselves from the time they were 8 weeks old.
I really have not had a pup put on an all out show of dominance like yours did, I suspect because they were left with the mother/litter mates for at least 8 weeks, often longer. It does not sound like your pup did this out of fear, it sounds like she was trying to put you in your place. Which she accomplished nicely when you gave in and cuddled her. She learned a lot right there about how she can be boss. Now your job will be a bit harder the next time you need to correct her.
I've only on a couple of occasions had to do a quick scruff grab and hold down along with a thunderous "NO" to get my point across. With your dog I would involve your dominance in every part of her life. Make her sit and wait before you put down the food bowl. At my house the dogs go into a "sit, wait" while I put down the bowl and do not make a move toward it until I say "OK". Make her sit and wait for you to go through doors first and then allow her to follow. Teach her about "my space" vs "your space". You should be able to move into her space, no matter what she's doing, and have her move away but not the other way around. Teach the "leave it" command. There's just a whole lot of things you can do to reinforce all day long that you are the boss, not her.
Good luck, I hope things work out. It will be something that needs to be worked on constantly as she is growing up. If not she will escalate to nipping or biting you to put you in your place.
Agree with Okie Amazon 100%. We have raised a few large breed, independent, dominant natured dogs that were raised to be watch dogs. And this was the exact reason we raised them ourselves from the time they were 8 weeks old.
I really have not had a pup put on an all out show of dominance like yours did, I suspect because they were left with the mother/litter mates for at least 8 weeks, often longer. It does not sound like your pup did this out of fear, it sounds like she was trying to put you in your place. Which she accomplished nicely when you gave in and cuddled her. She learned a lot right there about how she can be boss. Now your job will be a bit harder the next time you need to correct her.
I've only on a couple of occasions had to do a quick scruff grab and hold down along with a thunderous "NO" to get my point across. With your dog I would involve your dominance in every part of her life. Make her sit and wait before you put down the food bowl. At my house the dogs go into a "sit, wait" while I put down the bowl and do not make a move toward it until I say "OK". Make her sit and wait for you to go through doors first and then allow her to follow. Teach her about "my space" vs "your space". You should be able to move into her space, no matter what she's doing, and have her move away but not the other way around. Teach the "leave it" command. There's just a whole lot of things you can do to reinforce all day long that you are the boss, not her.
Good luck, I hope things work out. It will be something that needs to be worked on constantly as she is growing up. If not she will escalate to nipping or biting you to put you in your place.
Google the NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free) Want to go out? Sit first. Want to eat? Be petted and cuddled? Whatever the dog wants, they must DO something for it (or NOT do something, in the case of jumping up, etc)
And yeah, SIT ON A 9 WEEK OLD???? How many dogs do you go through in the average year?
And yeah, SIT ON A 9 WEEK OLD???? How many dogs do you go through in the average year?
Last edited:
- Jul 26, 2010
- 2,969
- 4
- 171
What do you mean?
All my pups were sitting on command within a couple hours of when I got them, as well as any pups anyone asked me for help with.
What's so hard about that?
And walking and heeling on a leash, and lying down on command in a couple days. 'Come' can be taught pretty soon too, as well as no and to not chew on something.
Why not? I want to be able to take my pup everywhere as soon as his shots are done. Plus he'll be going to puppy class, he'll already know everything in the puppy class so that he just has to learn to do it with the distractions of the other dogs around, instead of also learning to sit etc.
And then at four months I want to start with doing any special stuff - agility, herding, puppy coursing, see what the dog likes to do best and go with that.
I don't see anything wrong with teaching sit and down and walk on leash at nine weeks, that is not anything difficult.
Fact is I can't imagine waiting to teach them any of that basic stuff. Otherwise it's like living with a wild elephant loose in the house.
They're like little sponges at that age, just soaking everything up, plus having a lot of fun doing it.
All taught in little 20 second snapshots, and lots of treats.
All my pups were sitting on command within a couple hours of when I got them, as well as any pups anyone asked me for help with.
What's so hard about that?
And walking and heeling on a leash, and lying down on command in a couple days. 'Come' can be taught pretty soon too, as well as no and to not chew on something.
Why not? I want to be able to take my pup everywhere as soon as his shots are done. Plus he'll be going to puppy class, he'll already know everything in the puppy class so that he just has to learn to do it with the distractions of the other dogs around, instead of also learning to sit etc.
And then at four months I want to start with doing any special stuff - agility, herding, puppy coursing, see what the dog likes to do best and go with that.
I don't see anything wrong with teaching sit and down and walk on leash at nine weeks, that is not anything difficult.
Fact is I can't imagine waiting to teach them any of that basic stuff. Otherwise it's like living with a wild elephant loose in the house.
They're like little sponges at that age, just soaking everything up, plus having a lot of fun doing it.
All taught in little 20 second snapshots, and lots of treats.
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