Guardian dog neuter

[JaeG]

I just want to add that weight gain has nothing to do with whether a dog is de-sexed or not. Our 5 year old neutered (at 6 months) female is a very healthy, lean and active dog because she is on raw food. She is fed an appropriate amount for her size and she is neither too skinny or too fat despite being half labrador. She's a shelter puppy herself and does not need to contribute to more unwanted puppies in the world. And there are enough roaming dogs in our neighbourhood for that to be a real danger.

 

[Kusanar]

I just want to add that weight gain has nothing to do with whether a dog is de-sexed or not. Our 5 year old neutered (at 6 months) female is a very healthy, lean and active dog because she is on raw food. She is fed an appropriate amount for her size and she is neither too skinny or too fat despite being half labrador. She's a shelter puppy herself and does not need to contribute to more unwanted puppies in the world. And there are enough roaming dogs in our neighbourhood for that to be a real danger.

It actually does. A neutered dog is MORE LIKELY to gain excessive weight than one that isn't. Does not mean that every dog WILL gain excessive weight, just that they are now more likely to do so.

 

[RiverOtter]

First - I have to address;
We don't do it to our kids because we want our children to reproduce.

Second, there are a LOT of myths being thrown around here. A lot not even related to dogs at all.
Yes, it's true that growth is slightly different in a neutered animal - but NOT "Well, it makes them put on weight much more rapidly, their muscles do not develop normally and they are more tender"

Actually, it's the opposite. They get slightly taller, narrower and more feminine. They put on bone before muscle, and the muscle they put on is lighter and harder (think swimmer instead of football player). It is so very much the opposite of what has been claimed that there have been hormone supplements developed to encourage rapid weight gain in cattle - they contain testosterone (look it up)

Pig farmers have experimented with not castrating pigs, because 1) intact males gain faster and are more tender (yes, more tender, so long as they are growing - the meat is more tender because it is growing faster. MANY studies, look it up) and 2) It takes time and money to castrate.
The reason they still do it?
First, know that prey species have more testosterone in their systems than predators (so, yes, it is different for your dog, this is ALL less extreme) and testosterone DOES have an effect on behavior. Intact males housed with other males do more fighting, and intact males housed with females are endlessly "driven" and under lots of stress. Neither group gains well.

So, what does this mean for your dog?
A dog nuetered young will likely get slightly taller than a littermate who is not. He will be slightly more prone to being overweight - why? Because most dogs are over-fed and under-exercised, and he isn't fretting and stressing it off like his intact littermate is. If you let him (or any animal, or you) be overweight, there is an increased risk of diabetes, cushings and other metabolic disorders.

Oh, and yes, yes I have seen cushings in intact animals. Didn't even have to think about it. It happens at the same rate as for non-intact animals, there are just less intact ones, so I can understand how perhaps someone who doesn't deal with large numbers of animals might think that. I've worked with animals professionally for my entire life and yes, seen it.

The pay-off is;
~YES, there is a behavioral difference, and in some animals it is extreme. You have a mellow intact male? Great! Good for you!
They're not all like that. You have the exception.
It does cut down on roaming and aggression. Does it eliminate it? Of course not, animals have personalities and multiple reasons for doing things, and, as I mentioned, MOST dogs are hugely under-exercised. But looking for love is a very, very significant reason for dogs to roam and fight. And should your dog do this, they are in mortal danger the whole time they are off your property. Roaming dogs get shot, beaten (I went out swinging a heavy broomstick at the dog who went after my dog in our own yard and if he made it home, I'm sure his owner had a vet bill to pay), hit by cars, etc. If vets were in it to make money at the expense of animals, they'd be anti-neuter!
~All that frustrated drive is a strain on the heart. The person who mentioned horses - stallions have a shorter life expectancy and are more prone to heart attack than geldings.
~There's not just testicular cancer, but also prostrate cancer and should an intact dog get any kind of cancer, it will progress somewhat faster. Humans take hormone suppressants as part of many cancer treatments.
~Did you know that humans are one of the few animals without a penile bone? Dogs have one. Like any bone, it can break. While not an incredibly common injury, barring a hard, abusive kick to the belly, it only happens to intact males in a state of arousal and is why many dog breeders make certain their dogs are leashed for the act - which your dog won't be if you don't know he's off doing something, or if he, in frustration, is getting too intimate with something he shouldn't. I'd rather remove "his nads" than all his male parts.
~Speaking of penile injury, penile and urethral prolapse are not uncommon in dogs. Intact males are also more prone to UTI and sheath infections. And then there's always STDs, like Brucellosis ... Which is zoonotic - you can then catch it from your dog
http://www.pethealthnetwork.com/dog-health/dog-diseases-conditions-a-z/brucellosis-dogs

Altogether, I have zero issues with "fixing" any animal I am not actively interested in breeding.

@Kusanar , about horses - I have a degree in horse care. Most people can't properly handle horses at all, throw excess testosterone in that and you have a recipe for disaster. My stallion is perfectly mannered - most professional's stallions, you'd have to peek underneath to be certain they ARE stallions. This myth doesn't come from pros - it comes from the machismo type who take huge pride in being able to manhandle their "fierce" stallions around, like that makes their cahones bigger.
The 6 month, isolation, stall thing you're talking about leads to lots and lots of problems, testicles or not, but again, most people ...

Oh, and my stallion? When his breeding days are done, he's getting gelded. I want to have him for the longest time possible, I love that horse a lot.

 

[Kusanar]

@Kusanar , about horses - I have a degree in horse care. Most people can't properly handle horses at all, throw excess testosterone in that and you have a recipe for disaster. My stallion is perfectly mannered - most professional's stallions, you'd have to peek underneath to be certain they ARE stallions. This myth doesn't come from pros - it comes from the machismo type who take huge pride in being able to manhandle their "fierce" stallions around, like that makes their cahones bigger.
The 6 month, isolation, stall thing you're talking about leads to lots and lots of problems, testicles or not, but again, most people ...

Oh, and my stallion? When his breeding days are done, he's getting gelded. I want to have him for the longest time possible, I love that horse a lot.

Ever think that the shorter lives and more heart problems are due to them fretting all the time about not being with other horses? My stallion, other than being a heck of a lot active naturally than any of the geldings, doesn't do anything that would stress his heart more than the others do. He doesn't pace fence lines, scream at the mares in the next field, puff up and try to show that he's a fire breathing dragon...

And, in SOME breeds, the pros don't treat the studs different, but I see people a lot of the time marketing stallions that have never been ridden much less shown and people comment that "I'm so glad you decided to keep him as a stallion rather than showing him" so even the pros don't show stallions or handle them other than taking them to be bred. And these are highly sought after breeding stallions that people will pay thousands to breed to...

 

[happyfrenchman]

I just want to add that weight gain has nothing to do with whether a dog is de-sexed or not. Our 5 year old neutered (at 6 months) female is a very healthy, lean and active dog because she is on raw food. She is fed an appropriate amount for her size and she is neither too skinny or too fat despite being half labrador. She's a shelter puppy herself and does not need to contribute to more unwanted puppies in the world. And there are enough roaming dogs in our neighbourhood for that to be a real danger.

I don't see how you can say that?. Why do they castrate farm animals? If I didn't have my nads, I am sure I would weigh 800 lbs and why shouldn't I? LOL.r

First - I have to address;
We don't do it to our kids because we want our children to reproduce.

Second, there are a LOT of myths being thrown around here. A lot not even related to dogs at all.
Yes, it's true that growth is slightly different in a neutered animal - but NOT "Well, it makes them put on weight much more rapidly, their muscles do not develop normally and they are more tender"

Actually, it's the opposite. They get slightly taller, narrower and more feminine. They put on bone before muscle, and the muscle they put on is lighter and harder (think swimmer instead of football player). It is so very much the opposite of what has been claimed that there have been hormone supplements developed to encourage rapid weight gain in cattle - they contain testosterone (look it up)

Pig farmers have experimented with not castrating pigs, because 1) intact males gain faster and are more tender (yes, more tender, so long as they are growing - the meat is more tender because it is growing faster. MANY studies, look it up) and 2) It takes time and money to castrate.
The reason they still do it?
First, know that prey species have more testosterone in their systems than predators (so, yes, it is different for your dog, this is ALL less extreme) and testosterone DOES have an effect on behavior. Intact males housed with other males do more fighting, and intact males housed with females are endlessly "driven" and under lots of stress. Neither group gains well.

So, what does this mean for your dog?
A dog nuetered young will likely get slightly taller than a littermate who is not. He will be slightly more prone to being overweight - why? Because most dogs are over-fed and under-exercised, and he isn't fretting and stressing it off like his intact littermate is. If you let him (or any animal, or you) be overweight, there is an increased risk of diabetes, cushings and other metabolic disorders.

Oh, and yes, yes I have seen cushings in intact animals. Didn't even have to think about it. It happens at the same rate as for non-intact animals, there are just less intact ones, so I can understand how perhaps someone who doesn't deal with large numbers of animals might think that. I've worked with animals professionally for my entire life and yes, seen it.

The pay-off is;
~YES, there is a behavioral difference, and in some animals it is extreme. You have a mellow intact male? Great! Good for you!
They're not all like that. You have the exception.
It does cut down on roaming and aggression. Does it eliminate it? Of course not, animals have personalities and multiple reasons for doing things, and, as I mentioned, MOST dogs are hugely under-exercised. But looking for love is a very, very significant reason for dogs to roam and fight. And should your dog do this, they are in mortal danger the whole time they are off your property. Roaming dogs get shot, beaten (I went out swinging a heavy broomstick at the dog who went after my dog in our own yard and if he made it home, I'm sure his owner had a vet bill to pay), hit by cars, etc. If vets were in it to make money at the expense of animals, they'd be anti-neuter!
~All that frustrated drive is a strain on the heart. The person who mentioned horses - stallions have a shorter life expectancy and are more prone to heart attack than geldings.
~There's not just testicular cancer, but also prostrate cancer and should an intact dog get any kind of cancer, it will progress somewhat faster. Humans take hormone suppressants as part of many cancer treatments.
~Did you know that humans are one of the few animals without a penile bone? Dogs have one. Like any bone, it can break. While not an incredibly common injury, barring a hard, abusive kick to the belly, it only happens to intact males in a state of arousal and is why many dog breeders make certain their dogs are leashed for the act - which your dog won't be if you don't know he's off doing something, or if he, in frustration, is getting too intimate with something he shouldn't. I'd rather remove "his nads" than all his male parts.
~Speaking of penile injury, penile and urethral prolapse are not uncommon in dogs. Intact males are also more prone to UTI and sheath infections. And then there's always STDs, like Brucellosis ... Which is zoonotic - you can then catch it from your dog
http://www.pethealthnetwork.com/dog-health/dog-diseases-conditions-a-z/brucellosis-dogs

Altogether, I have zero issues with "fixing" any animal I am not actively interested in breeding.

@Kusanar , about horses - I have a degree in horse care. Most people can't properly handle horses at all, throw excess testosterone in that and you have a recipe for disaster. My stallion is perfectly mannered - most professional's stallions, you'd have to peek underneath to be certain they ARE stallions. This myth doesn't come from pros - it comes from the machismo type who take huge pride in being able to manhandle their "fierce" stallions around, like that makes their cahones bigger.
The 6 month, isolation, stall thing you're talking about leads to lots and lots of problems, testicles or not, but again, most people ...

Oh, and my stallion? When his breeding days are done, he's getting gelded. I want to have him for the longest time possible, I love that horse a lot.

Well.. that is exactly what I am talking about... lt is up to the owner to decide, but I believe it demonstrates an indifference to the health and welfare, not to mention potential, of the animal. "I love you, so I am going to cut your nads off for your own good". It is disrespectful and indifferent. Animals would not choose it themselves. Certainly an owner can do what they want with their own animals, but don't try to tell me there is no side effect. I can cite studies. This is just one article... there are many if you care to research it yourself....

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2016/07/27/neutering-spaying-effects.aspx

It is people that claim to love their animals the most that seem to be the first ones to start clipping... And saying they don't care... (how is that for love) or that it makes no difference... (demonstrably untrue).You can certainly do what you want... but don't tell me you can cut a major endocrine organ off an animal and there are no negative effects. That is flying in the face of biology and health science. And as for kids....We don't do it to our kids because it would be considered inhuman cruelty... not just for prevention of breeding...if that were it, we would do it to some of them kids. LOL. What would a young man look like if we neutered him at 12 or whenever would be analogous? It would not be a good thing.

 

[JaeG]

I don't see how you can say that?. Why do they castrate farm animals? If I didn't have my nads, I am sure I would weigh 800 lbs and why shouldn't I? LOL.r

Our dog is active and fed appropriate food in the appropriate proportions so she doesn't become overweight. It doesn't matter that she was de-sexed. That's why I like the raw feeding so much - it's so simple (plus we have a local shop set up by a vet with everything we need which makes it super simple). Our dog weighs 20kg (44 pounds) so she gets 400-600g or 2-3% of her body weight (14-21 ounces) a day. Because she is so active we give her around 600g daily. That amount can vary as long as over the course of the week she gets what she should. We may even give her a starve day once or twice a week where she gets twice as much food one day followed by none the next. It encourages her body to put on muscle rather than fat.

They castrate farm animals simply because of ease of handling/safety. Same reason they dehorn cows (who are aggressive when protecting their calves) - for safety. And dock sheep - so they don't get fly blown. A paddock full of 'bulls' growing to a certain age to be a good weight for slaughter, would not be fun - it would be downright dangerous. Rams are not put with the ewes unless it's time to breed them, because they are really aggressive. Same goes for bulls. And boars (those things terrified me as a kid). And in the case of goats it's also so the boys don't stink. You also couldn't do a daily check of all of your new offspring if you were having to watch your back for that male sheep/cow/pig/goat because they will charge you.

We are keeping them in an unnatural environment for our own convenience, and to ensure the safety of the farmer, and keeping their business productive as to the number of animals they can keep, certain things need to happen.

 

[Below frigid]

Had a female going in heat. No more interest in puppies as I just got done raising 10! So I decided to get the male neutered. They failed to tell me to still keep them apart. I figured he was good to go. Boy was he! Not home for 10 minutes and looked out the window and they were going at it. Called the vet to let them have it for failing to inform me. Lucky for me there was no pregnancy and he did not injure himself.

 

[RiverOtter]

Ever think that the shorter lives and more heart problems are due to them fretting all the time about not being with other horses?

Not even a little bit, and here's why - 1) I'm not just going on my own personal experience, there have been studies done.
2) If I WAS going by my personal experience, it is with eventers, hunters and dressage horses. Even the stallions get lots of company (equine and human) and attention.

And, in SOME breeds, the pros don't treat the studs different, but I see people a lot of the time marketing stallions that have never been ridden much less shown and people comment that "I'm so glad you decided to keep him as a stallion rather than showing him"

For that, you can thank the breed association and/or regional shows, that doesn't allow intact animals in the show ring above a certain age, or at all.
There aren't a lot of them, but the fact that you've heard that tells me you're probably in a QH heavy area.
But I'm not sure how this relates. Xenephon spoke about the advantages and disadvantages of gelding - this is not exactly a new thing.

Why do they castrate farm animals? ....

And as for kids....We don't do it to our kids because it would be considered inhuman cruelty... not just for prevention of breeding...if that were it, we would do it to some of them kids. LOL. What would a young man look like if we neutered him at 12 or whenever would be analogous? It would not be a good thing.

I said, in detail, why they castrate farm animals. And the article I posted was a specific one on canine bruccelosis.

And history has told us EXACTLY what happens when we neuter human beings, and the differences created by different styles of neutering. Look up "Castrati". The practice was legal well into the 1800s in most of the world and is still practiced by a few religious groups to this day to one degree or another (one can argue that circumcision is a mild form) History also tells us that yes, it is because nowadays, we want our children to reproduce

 

[RiverOtter]

Our dog is active and fed appropriate food in the appropriate proportions so she doesn't become overweight. It doesn't matter that she was de-sexed.

Same.
I currently have an intact female and a neutered male dog. Both are fit, healthy and active, because that's how I keep them. Recently lost a spayed female - 14 years old, no diabetes, no cushings, just a bit of senility now and again.
I've owned 14 dogs over the years, both fixed and intact, and my fixed ones have always been just as fit and trim as any others, while also being significantly less inclined to roam. Not only have I not had health problems in my neutered dogs, there are a good many things I don't have to worry about - good for me AND them.

As far as what they would choose ... they're animals. They would choose to bark and nip at whatever they like, roll in manure, eat trash, pee on the living room floor, never see the vet, eat the kids pet rabbit, chew on all the furniture and either never go near a car or ride in one 30 hours a day.
They don't get a vote on any of it.
I'm just cold-hearted that way.

 

[happyfrenchman]

Ease of handling is just one reason they castrate farm animals.... it makes them grow fatter. Ask any rancher... A bull would be tough and mean.... a steer, much tenderer. Same for pigs.... and I would add, most of these farm animals we are talking about in hypotheticals, do not live past 1 year... sometimes 2.... so alot of the secondary sex traits would not be much of a factor. Read about Capons.... a rooster that is castrated to eat... why? Have you ever tried to eat a rooster? but Capones are supposedly a delicacy.

Some people should cite ease of handling when they list the reasons for neutering their dogs... They cannot train them properly, but they mistakenly are told they are more docile etc... when castrated. Not always. My wife's dog was castrated because her know it all sister said it was good for him.... he died of Cushings, at 8 years old...Overweight, swollen.... it was only after a prolonged bout of suffering that he had to be put down.....a sweeter dog I have never known. RIP Bucky...

I just think there are two sides to the neutering story. Most people never even hear about the other side because the neuter side runs roughshod over those who think otherwise, despite a growing realization that it is a long term health hazard to unnecessarily neuter a healthy animal. I know. I have been saying this for years... For years the neuter nazi's would shout down anyone that suggested there might be an issue... now, apparently some vets are finally using their own eyes to see what was obvious to some.

https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2016/07/27/neutering-spaying-effects.aspx

Don't take my word for it.... Just type in "Negative effects of neutering" into google and you will get an eyeful.