FWIW, the last vet I talked to said that I could give 15-25mg/kg once a day by mouth.She is in a low light area, thanks. I will start her on Baytril asap. Thanks for the suggestions.
Has anyone ever tried to do surgery on a chicken that is internally laying? WARNING ( semi graphic p
- Thread starter PAchickenlover
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Nope ... have performed repairs, and even extracted bullets in emergencies, but have never entered the abdominal cavity of any living creature. For certain, you can, and you should, provide this bird w/ an aspirin solution, by dissolving five 5-grain (324mg) aspirins w/in a gallon of water -- this can be safely offered free-choice to poultry throughout any periods of illness or stress.
But, indeed, I have personally been in the position your chicken was in, as I've had a surgeon enter my *own* abdominal cavity, while wide awake and fully alert, and able to watch him most skillfully save my life. However, I had the benefit of local anesthesia, and his words to walk me through (although I did almost grasp his hands w/ my own, as his scalpel plunged through the second layer of my abdominal muscles ~'-)
I've been stitched numerous times, often w/ the needle in my own hand, which is mildly uncomfortable. I've set my own bones in the field, which hurts like ... well ... a lot. And, honestly, there's been pain I wouldn't have chosen to live through, had I been given any choice, despite my ability to disassociate quite well, which is an ability most humans no longer require. And, if I were this chicken, and able to choose? I'da asked for a quick end, by your best aim.
What folks can debate, once they have a better understanding of God's design, is whether the pain endured by the chicken was severe enough to outweigh the potential benefits of the procedure you've performed, which is a decision I'd defer to you, 'cause it's your bird.
I offer the following clinical evidence as to a chicken's response to stimuli. >> peck here << for the full report ~'-)
A wide variety of repeated stressful or painful stimuli
can induce temporary reductions in responsiveness to
noxious stimuli (called stress-induced analgesia). Stress
from social isolation can also alter pain perception in
species that normally live in groups. The two most common
indications of social separation in domestic chicks
are distress vocalizations and stress-induced analgesia.37
Birds experiencing less stress (i.e., those held and tested
in familiar large pens) showed significantly less pain-coping
behavior compared with birds tested in novel pens.36,37
Stress-induced analgesia caused by social separation is
poorly understood. In mammals, two theories describe
the role of endogenous opioids in social separation. One
theory (social separation–opioid stimulation) suggests
that opioid system activity is stimulated by stressful experiences
such as social separation, whereas another theory
(social separation–opioid withdrawal) suggests the opposite—
social isolation places an animal in a state similar to
opioid withdrawal. Birds that become separated from
conspecifics elicit distress vocalizations in an attempt to
reestablish social contact. This isolation causes a state of
endogenous opioid withdrawal, leading to disinhibition
of distress vocalizations, whereas the presence of social
companions stimulates the release of endogenous opioids,
inhibiting vocalizations.38 Opioid agonists tend to
decrease distress vocalizations, whereas opioid antagonists
increase separation-induced distress vocalization. However,
when morphine was administered to isolated chicks,
there was no change in response to thermal nociception.
Adrenergic, cholinergic, dopaminergic, GABAergic, and
serotoninergic manipulations produce only modest effects
on distress vocalization. These results suggest that some
separation-stress behaviors are mediated by opioid systems
(i.e., distress vocalization), whereas others are mediated
by nonopioid systems (i.e., stress-induced analgesia
and hyperthermia).
Benzodiazepine agonists can modulate stress in many
animal models and thus influence the results of nociceptive
tests while having no effect on nociception itself. As
with morphine, the benzodiazepine agonist chlordiazepoxide
reverses distress vocalizations in chick social
separation, but unlike morphine, chlordiazepoxide also
reverses stress-induced analgesia. It appears that benzodiazepine
is less behavior-specific than morphine in
modulating separation-stress behaviors in chicks.38
Although stress may produce analgesia in some situations,
stress alone should not be considered necessary or
sufficient to induce analgesia.
Pain associated with trauma and disease can be
chronic and often involves inflammation. Behavioral
responses to pain are complex and can be influenced by
changes in an animal’s attention (level of awareness). In
chickens, changes in attention can significantly suppress
pain and reduce lameness during an experimentally
induced chronic pain stimulus (i.e., injection of sodium
urate into the joint, which mimics articular gout).
Hypoalgesia can be produced by diverting attention in
situations designed to increase feeding motivation or
motivation to explore. Complete analgesia or marked
hypoalgesia was observed in birds deprived of food for
16 hours and then given access to food following
sodium urate injection. This could be completely
reversed by naloxone, suggesting that the analgesia may
be opioid-mediated. When introduced to novel surroundings,
birds behaved as normal; alert birds and
attentional mechanisms are preoccupied with exploring
a new physical and/or social environment.
Distraction and attention-focusing strategies have
been used to help humans cope with chronic low-level
pain. Coping is based on the cognitive action of switching
attention; thus when patients were fully engaged in
a task, they did not process pain at the same time. The
absence of pain-related behavior does not necessarily
indicate an absence of pain. Expression of pain in birds,
similar to that in humans, can be altered by the motivational
state of the individual, but the analgesia experienced
is likely only temporary.
Although the precise mechanism is unknown, there is
evidence that the peripheral nervous system plays a significant
role in inflammation. Some evidence suggests
that changes in attention resulting in reduced pain may
also directly influence inflammation, leaving only the
general tissue reaction. Studies on the neural activity in
the medullary dorsal horn of monkeys suggest that
attention-dependent changes in sensory discrimination
and affective components of pain are mediated at the
early stages of sensory processing. If similar changes
occur while processing nociceptive information at the
spinal level, the activity of the peripheral nervous system
may also be affected. Reduced pain perception and
inflammation were demonstrated following attentional
changes in chickens. However, more research is necessary
before clear conclusions can be drawn.
1. Gottschaldt K-M, Fruhstorfer H, Schmidt W: Thermosensitivity and its
possible fine-structural basis in mechanoreceptors in the beak skin of geese. J
Comp Neurol 205:219–245, 1982.
2. Necker R, Reiner B: Temperature-sensitive mechanoreceptors, thermoreceptors
thermoreceptors
and heat nociceptors in the feathered skin of pigeons. J Comp Physiol
135:201–207, 1980.
3. Gentle MJ, Hunter LN: Physiological and behavioural responses associated
with feather removal in Gallus gallus var domesticus. Res Vet Sci 50:95–101, 1990.
4. Hocking PM, Gentle MJ, Bernard R, Dunn LN: Evaluation of a protocol for
determining the effectiveness of pretreatment with local analgesics for reducing
experimentally induced articular pain in domestic fowl. Res Vet Sci
63:263–267, 1997.
5. Hughes RA, Bowes M, Sufka KJ: Morphine hyperalgesic effects on developmental
changes in thermal nociception and respiration in domestic fowl
(Gallus gallus). Pharmacol Biochem Behav 42:535–539, 1992.
6. Curro TG: Evaluation of the isoflurane-sparing effects of butorphanol and
flunixin in psittaciformes. Proc Assoc Avian Vet 17–19, 1994.
7. Paul-Murphy JR, Brunson DB, Miletic V: Analgesic effects of butorphanol
and buprenorphine in conscious African grey parrots (Psittacus erithacus erithacus
and Psittacus erithacus timneh). Am J Vet Res 60(10):1218–1221, 1999.
8. Reiner A, Davis BM, Brecha N: The distribution of enkephalinlike
immunoreactivity in the telencephalon of the adult and developing domestic
chicken. J Comp Neurol 228:245–262, 1984.
9. Curro TG, Brunson DB, Paul-Murphy J: Determination of the ED50 of
isoflurane and evaluation of the isoflurane-sparing effect of butorphanol in
cockatoos (Cacatua spp). Vet Anesth 23:429–433, 1994.
10. Danbury TC, Chambers JP, Weeks CA: Self-selection of analgesic drugs by
broiler chickens. Anim Choices 20:126–127, 1997.
11. Livingston A: Physiological basis for pain perception in animals. J Vet Anaesth
21:73–77, 1994.
12. Gentle MJ: Pain in birds. Anim Welfare 1:235–247, 1992.
13. Chapman CR, Casey KL, Dubner R: Pain measurement: An overview. Pain
22:1–31, 1985.
14. Gentle M: The acute effects of amputation on peripheral trigeminal afferents
in Gallus gallus var domesticus. Pain 46:97–103, 1991.
15. Holloway JA, Trought CO,Wright LE: Cutaneous receptive field characteristics
of primary afferents and dorsal horn cells in the avian (Gallus domesticus).
Exp Neurol 68:477–488, 1980.
16. Breward J, Gentle MJ: Neuroma formation and abnormal afferent nerve discharges
after partial beak amputation (beak trimming) in poultry. Experientia
41:1132–1134, 1985.
17. Nicol GD, Klingberg DK, Vasko MR: Prostaglandin E2 increases in calcium
conductance and stimulates release of substance P in avian sensory neurons. J
Neurosci 12(5):1917–1927, 1992.
18. Zhai S-Y, Atsumi S: Large dorsal horn neurons which receive inputs from
numerous substance P–like immunoreactive axon terminals in the laminae I
and II of the chicken spinal cord. Neurosci Res 28:147–154, 1997.
19. Wan Q, Pang SF: Segmental, coronal and subcellular distribution of 2-
[125I]iodomelatonin binding sites in the chicken spinal cord. Neurosci Lett
180:253–256, 1994.
20. Fernandez-Lopez A, Revilla V, Candelas MA: A comparative study of
alpha2- and beta-adrenoceptor distribution in pigeon and chick brain. Eur J
Neurosci 9(5):871–883, 1997.
21. Danbury TC, Hudson AL,Waterman-Pearson AE: Saturation binding of μ, d,
and k opioid ligands in chicken brains. Arch Pharm 358(suppl 35)(1):105, 1998.
22. Hendrickson CM, Lin S: Opiate receptors in highly purified neuronal cell
populations isolated in bulk form embryonic chick brain. Neuropharmacology
13:731–739, 1980.
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and the welfare of adult male turkeys with destructive cartilage loss of
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:: edited to add the link:
http://mobile.vetlearn.com/Media/PublicationsArticle/PV_27_02_98.pdf
/edit ::
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- Thread starter
- #13
Update: My hen is up moving around, alert, eating and drinking. She is on antibiotics, Baby asprin (as once suggested to me by Dawg53) and I am spraying Vetericyn on the surgery site. She seems in good spirits, is "talking to me" again, and seems relieved to have that huge mass out of her. I appreciate all the comments from everyone. She was on antibiotics prior to me deciding to do the surgery. I was trying to see if it was an infection of some sort before, when no changes happened and my chicken, Rags (her name thanks to my kids) seemed in more pain than before, I decided to take matters in my own hands. I did give her a baby asprin prior to the surgery, so there was some kind of pain meds given. She is now breathing better and acting happier already. I did not think of it at the time as being animal abuse, I thought of only trying to save Rag's life as she would have died from this. She was slowly loosing weight, which is like slowly starving. I think that is more cruel than the decision I made to do the surgery. Others may not see it the same way that I do and that is ok. This is a "free country" and we have freedom of speach. So I am not offended by any of the comments that were made. All of you had my Rags's wellfare in mind, so did and do I, so I respect what all of you have said, however I believe I did the right thing for her. I will keep updating her status to let everyone know how she is doing. Thanks again. PAchickenlover
- Thread starter
- #14
My Rags is doing beter. We just let her out on the floor for a while, and we spoiled her while she was out with treats. My kids are very happy that she is doing so much better and so am I. She devoured some sweet corn pieces, a piece of a peach, some peas, and some oatmeal. I plan on cooking an egg for her here in a few minutes. She is acting more like a chicken today than she has in weeks 
Her tail, she is carrying in an upword position which she has not done in atleast a week. So she is making posative porgress. Thanks for your concern
Her tail, she is carrying in an upword position which she has not done in atleast a week. So she is making posative porgress. Thanks for your concern
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The implication of your words is that you now view your efforts otherwise, which I don't believe you necessarily should -- for certain, I wish to clarify my own words:
Your actions absolutely do NOT constitute any manner of abuse. <-- Period.
Certainly, it might have been done differently, but as Beaky Buzzard put it, "the fact remains what was thought to be right was done and things go on...." I am very glad she's doin' well, and do wish to hear more details of your experience, as I am truly hoping to learn all that I can from your procedure.
To any that wishes to accuse you falsely of inflicting such dramatically intense levels of pain, most esp. by incorrectly relating the chicken's responses to stimuli to that of humans, I suggest you direct them to actually learn about chickens first:
See the citations provided w/in my last post.
To any that wishes to accuse you falsely of violating the Animal Welfare Act, I suggest you direct them to actually learn the law first:
7 U.S.C. 54 §2132. Definitions, (g) The term “animal” means any live or dead dog, cat, monkey (nonhuman primate mammal), guinea pig, hamster, rabbit, or such other warm-blooded animal, as the Secretary may determine is being used, or is intended for use, for research, testing, experimentation, or exhibition purposes, or as a pet; but such term excludes (1) birds, rats of the genus Rattus, and mice of the genus Mus, bred for use in research, (2) horses not used for research purposes, and (3) other farm animals, such as, but not limited to livestock or poultry, used or intended for use as food or fiber, or livestock or poultry used or intended for use for improving animal nutrition, breeding, management, or production efficiency, or for improving the quality of food or fiber. With respect to a dog, the term means all dogs including those used for hunting, security, or breeding purposes;
:: Edited to add color highlights to the above U.S. Code. ::
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- #16
Thank you Cowcreekgeek I appreciate your words and facts. As for the surgery, I found it to be rather easy. The hardest part was getting all of the egg mass out of her. Other than that it went smoothly and quickly. She didn't bleed much at all either which made me very happy. I tried when I cut her open to look carefully for veins and tried not to cut them. She is doing great in my opinion, she was just scratching around in her bedding and pecking at things she found in there. She is eating and drinking well.I hope she will make a full recovery and start to put her weight back on. I want to de-worm her but will wait till she has healed a little bit more as I do not want to stress her system out anymore. I will be happy to answer any questions about the procedure that anyone has.
As for the surgery, I found it to be rather easy. The hardest part was getting all of the egg mass out of her. Other than that it went smoothly and quickly. She didn't bleed much at all either which made me very happy. I tried when I cut her open to look carefully for veins and tried not to cut them. She is doing great in my opinion, she was just scratching around in her bedding and pecking at things she found in there. She is eating and drinking well.I hope she will make a full recovery and start to put her weight back on. I want to de-worm her but will wait till she has healed a little bit more as I do not want to stress her system out anymore. I will be happy to answer any questions about the procedure that anyone has.
Thank you Cowcreekgeek I appreciate your words and facts.
My first question would be about incision(s) made -- if any were made to the internal organs, or if only to the skin covering the abdominal cavity, so as to allow access (I was guessing it allowed you to put one finger on the inside, and another on the outside, so as to manipulate the mass).
And, also, was the mass found w/in the shell gland, or some other part of the reproductive tract? I guess I'm lookin' for the 'play by play' version (sorry ~'-)
- Thread starter
- #18
As I am not a professional I am not sure of the exact location. I could not get the mass out through the vagina so I had to make an insision internally.
I'd also like the "play by play" description and more pictures if you have any.
- Thread starter
- #20
There were no pieces of shell in any of it.
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