Help Identify Mystery Marans Chick - UPDATED PHOTOS 11/11/09 Post #65

[blackdotte]

Wheaten is dominant to e+ & eb when segregating independently, but recessive to both in the presence of melanisers.
Clean shanked (English type) Marans are only found in Black,Silver Cuckoo,Golden Cuckoo,& Dark Cockoo . Copper Black,correctly called Brown-Red, is a variety in the French Standard, so should have feathered shanks/feet. A clean shanked Black Copper is not recognised in any Standard (yet), but who knows what the APA will do?
David

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
Hmmmm.

Sooo......birds that are visually duckwing, but het for wheaten, are necessarily carrying melanizers? If they didn't have melanizers, they would look wheaten instead??

Clean shanked (English type) Marans are only found in Black,Silver Cuckoo,Golden Cuckoo,& Dark Cockoo . Copper Black,correctly called Brown-Red, is a variety in the French Standard, so should have feathered shanks/feet. A clean shanked Black Copper is not recognised in any Standard (yet), but who knows what the APA will do?
David

The APA will recognize feathered legs only, that's what the APA will do. But rest assured, there are plenty of clean legged birds around in many different varieties, whether they are officially recognized or not.

 

[Krys109uk]

Sooo......birds that are visually duckwing, but het for wheaten, are necessarily carrying melanizers? If they didn't have melanizers, they would look wheaten instead??

That's what one would think....however. This year I crossed buff Orp male (eWh) no melanisers lots of resrictors, onto silver grey dorking simple duckwing (e+) with silver (S). At the hatch the down appears e+. Obviously sex linked with the females apparently a lighter version of usual e+ down, the males yellow with e+ markings (eye stripe, light chestnut central stripe up onto head the two light dorsal stripes with some darker edge stripes.

If it were easy to tell the difference between pure ER and het for E(Wh), then we wouldn't have such a mess in Marans with so many black coppers throwing wheatens all over the place.

I don't know how easy it is to spot other people's heterozygotes, I can only really speak for my own Marans messes which I am attempting to sort out. I think some of it could be a matter of experience, I can often see people post pics of their birds which look like my ER/eWh heterozygotes.
It is not always so easy to tell with the pullets though sometimes there are tell tale signs. Sometimes I cannot be sure until after test mating. The males look more apparent. I've been trap nesting, wing tagging & recording everything, so I can get a good idea of which bird is carrying what.​

 

[frenchblackcopper]

There is supposed to be enough birds represented in Bellevidere Ilinois in September for a Marans breed Standard to be adopted.Problem is none of the USA bred birds meet the French Breed Standard,and the birds from the breeders to be presented do not resemble each other enough to be uniform in type,or feather markings between the breeders that will "represent" the entire Marans breeding community.

It seems difficult to gather 50 birds,from several breeders from all across the USA that are similar it type,structure and markings.I find it rather unsettling that such an attempt is being tried.Marans in this country have a finite gene pool,,very little if any legally imported new Marans blood from France has been introduced and promoted in the French Marans breed here.The gene pool is stagnate and constant linebreeding is now resulting in many USA Marans hatching out "sport" birds,along with many other undesireable French Breed Standards traits.

I have witnessed Black Marans eggs selling on E-Bay with a picture of the hen,clearly showing she has white ear lobes,,and the seller states they worked long and hard to get those birds from one of the top Marans breeders in the USA,,,wonder what Penedesenca accidently jumped the fence,.or was purposely bred into the flock to enhance egg color? Let's face it,once another breed is crossed with another so called "pure" breed,the results are no longer,or can be called "pure" anymore.

In my opinion,the Marans breed is not yet ready to even be presented to the APA with all the varied issues from breeder to breeder,flock to flock.The Marans here now that do not lay at least a 4 on the French Marans Egg color chart are not to be considered a French Marans breed.Those birds without feathered shanks,,cannot be considered a French Marans breed of poultry.

They either need to decide to make a new name for the breed and adopt standards that work for what is presented,or go by an already established French Standard,and try to breed birds to match it. But because few if any meet the French MARANS Standard,seems a diplomat from the French Marans Club in France should attend this show,and present true French Birds to show the APA what they should look like.There has been many attempts here in the USA the past few months to write up a Marans Breed Standard,to fit the Marans that will be presented to the APA,,From the e-mails I have seen on this proposal,many very descriptive and expressed French Marans Breed Standards have been purposely omitted because those traits cannot be found in French Marans flocks in the USA anymore.

Proof here is that egg color has been the top priority with USA Marans,,and trying to breed to any standard or a "type" of Marans is secondary. Thus,all the problems now within the breed,and the Marans community.

In my final opinion,Marans within the USA now only have 1 breed standard,,and that is the one adopted by France.If your birds do not meet that established French Breed Standard,,,then your not raising a Marans chicken,,it should be named something else.

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
That's a mighty strong statement. Have you actually *seen* each and every USA bred bird in this country?

and the birds from the breeders to be presented do not resemble each other enough to be uniform in type,or feather markings between the breeders that will "represent" the entire Marans breeding community.

Have you *seen* each and every bird from the breeders to be presented? Care to provide us with photos to demonstrate just how non-uniform they are over all?

I have witnessed Black Marans eggs selling on E-Bay with a picture of the hen,clearly showing she has white ear lobes,,and the seller states they worked long and hard to get those birds from one of the top Marans breeders in the USA,,,wonder what Penedesenca accidently jumped the fence,.or was purposely bred into the flock to enhance egg color? Let's face it,once another breed is crossed with another so called "pure" breed,the results are no longer,or can be called "pure" anymore.

There are lots of unscrupulous breeders and sellers out there. That's one of the reasons why we NEED official standards -- so that people have something concrete to aim towards and judge purchases by, in THIS country.

There has been many attempts here in the USA the past few months to write up a Marans Breed Standard,to fit the Marans that will be presented to the APA,,From the e-mails I have seen on this proposal,many very descriptive and expressed French Marans Breed Standards have been purposely omitted because those traits cannot be found in French Marans flocks in the USA anymore.

Baloney.

You know, this kind of reminds me of Sarah Palin's remarks about "Death Panels", and whoever it was who started that "birther" nonsense trying to claim that Obama isn't a US citizen. Just a bunch of people making stuff up to fit their own political agendas.

I know, I know, this isn't a political forum. But for some reason, politics keep creeping into the Marans community.

Please, folks -- don't believe everything anybody says about things like the proposed APA standard. If you have questions about it, read the standard for yourself. It has been available for many months on the Marans Chicken Club USA web site -- www.maransusa.org . If you'll actually *read* the standard, you'll see that it closely follows the official French standard -- which can be found here:
http://marans-club.club.fr/standang.htm#standard

Proof here is that egg color has been the top priority with USA Marans,,and trying to breed to any standard or a "type" of Marans is secondary. Thus,all the problems now within the breed,and the Marans community.

Ummmm.....proof of WHAT?? Proof that responsible breeders are trying to preserve the biggest distinguishing mark of the breed, its dark eggs? I don't see that as anything to be ashamed of.

In my final opinion,Marans within the USA now only have 1 breed standard,,and that is the one adopted by France.If your birds do not meet that established French Breed Standard,,,then your not raising a Marans chicken,,it should be named something else.

When *you* get your birds accepted by the APA, you can call them anything you like. The Marans Chicken Club USA is working to get -- guess what -- Marans accepted.

 

[tadkerson]

Why not let the APA make the decision about the marans breed. If the club meets the following criteria then they will be approved if not then the group can go back to work on the breed.

(5) Hold a qualifying meet with at least 50 entries of the color or variety.
(6) The qualifying judge then recommends to the APA Board if he or she believes the breed had the sufficient entries of good quality present for the meet.
(7) The APA Board then votes on approval for that color(variety).

Tim

 

[Krys109uk]

I think people caring more about churning out as many birds to lay eggs to sell for as much money as they can, rather than taking their time trying to breed good birds, is what has messed up many would be Marans. In many cases the egg colour is very questionable.
There are also a lot of diligent breeders doing their best to sort out their Marans & trying to breed towards standard. Good, dark red/brown egg colour is a part of the Marans breed; without correct egg colour they cannot truly be called marans even if they fit the French standard type wise.
It is logical to assume that if one has all of the traits necessary to have a correct Marans, present in ones flock, & plans ones goals one step at a time, while documenting all breeding, culls rigorously for all weakness, as well as the unwanted results of a particular mating, eventually one will get to ones goal.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

I didn't come here to start an uprising,but amazondoc,when you write at the bottom of your reply

Please, folks -- don't believe everything anybody says about things like the proposed APA standard. If you have questions about it, read the standard for yourself. It has been available for many months on the Marans Chicken Club USA web site -- www.maransusa.org . If you'll actually *read* the standard, you'll see that it closely follows the official French standard -- which can be found here:
http://marans-club.club.fr/standang.htm#standard

I have the e-mails to back up what has been changed,and why it was changed,and under whose direction it was changed,by the actual lady who wrote the standards to be presented to the APA..FOR FRENCH MARANS chickens,,,and as I wrote before,a MARANS and a French Marans are 2 seperate birds,,

 

[amazondoc]

Quote:
Please....malicious email rumors spamming the internet do not establish proof of anything.

If you want to discuss the standards, then read the standards themselves. Leave the self-interested political back-stabbing (I'm not referring to you here, but to the originator of some of those rumors) out of it.

If you really believe that the APA proposed standards are significantly different from the French standard, then quote the specific passages that concern you. Show us those specific differences, and I'm sure several folks here would be happy to discuss them. Otherwise, please stop spreading lies.

 

[Krys109uk]

I have the e-mails to back up what has been changed,and why it was changed,and under whose direction it was changed,by the actual lady who wrote the standards to be presented to the APA..FOR FRENCH MARANS chickens,,,and as I wrote before,a MARANS and a French Marans are 2 seperate birds

Curious. What was changed & why? I am only asking out of curiosity. I have nothing to do with the US marans club.
I breed to French standards & don't much care about other countries' standards for Marans. I run a closed flock; I like to know what I'm dealing with. I might get there one day & if I don't it won't hurt anyone.