Help with confusion over electrolytes and medicated feed

[tickens33]

Hello! My partner and I are raising a flock for the first time. We have 4 Buff Orpingtons and 3 silver laced Wyandottes. They are 2 weeks old as of yesterday and from everything we can tell, they seem to be thriving! I have a couple of (hopefully quick) questions about their feed and water.

When we first got the chicks, we started them on Purina medicated feed. However, we were also using Rooster Booster for electrolytes which we realized contains thiamine, and we learned the thiamine makes the medicated feed ineffective.

My first question: Since realizing the rooster booster had thiamine, we have taken them off the medicated feed. In my understanding, they were effectively not receiving the medication due to the supplements. Since the medicated feed is only effective if started in the first couple days of life, it seemed like it didn't make sense to continue with it. However, we are still mixing some of the medicated feed in with the regular feed so as not to waste it. Could anyone confirm if our thought process is accurate here? Should we just toss the remaining medicated feed?

Second question: During this research into the medicated feed, we also learned that electrolyte mix shouldn't be used for more than a few days at a time (the mix container did not say this anywhere, but we found the info on the rooster booster website). We had the chicks on it for about the first 10 days of life and they seem to be doing great; to be cautious though, after learning this, we switched them to plain water immediately. Would it now be appropriate to start putting ACV and herbs in their water as a natural supplement? Anything I might be misnderstanding here about the purpose of electrolytes for the birds' water?

Thank you in advance for sharing your experience and knowledge

 

[nuthatched]

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this.

So in your experience, just plain water is always best? Is there ever an instance where you, personally, supplement anything ("natural" or otherwise) in their feed or water?

Thank you for your insight

You're welcome.
Fresh, plain water is best, if you need/want to add something, make sure you have a second source of plain water and that if it's acv, not to put it in a galvanized waterer.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Since the medicated feed is only effective if started in the first couple days of life

Not true at all. It can be effective any time as long as it is while they are exposed to the bug that causes Coccidiosis. Many chicks are not exposed to that bug until they are out of the brooder and on the ground. Even then some are not exposed unless that bug is in your environment.

There are some vaccines that give you immunity to certain diseases. Feed medicated with Amproleum is not one of those. It allows your chicken's body to develop immunity if it is exposed to that bug. That is a totally different thing.

I'll copy something I wrote a few years ago about medicated feed and Coccidiosis. It may clear up some misconceptions about medicated feed. If you have further questions please ask.

First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there mostly for broilers, that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprolium is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. For them to reproduce they need some moisture. Slightly damp isn't an issue, soaking wet is. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. Since I keep my brooder extremely dry and the water clean the protozoa can't reproduce so every three days I give them more dirt from the run so they get more protozoa and can develop immunity. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

Should we just toss the remaining medicated feed?

I see no reason to waste that feed. You can either feed just it or you can mix it with something else.

Second question: During this research into the medicated feed, we also learned that electrolyte mix shouldn't be used for more than a few days at a time (the mix container did not say this anywhere, but we found the info on the rooster booster website). We had the chicks on it for about the first 10 days of life and they seem to be doing great; to be cautious though, after learning this, we switched them to plain water immediately. Would it now be appropriate to start putting ACV and herbs in their water as a natural supplement? Anything I might be misnderstanding here about the purpose of electrolytes for the birds' water?

You can get all kinds of differing opinions on practically any topic on this forum. Some people use all kinds of different things as supplements for themselves or for their chickens. Others don't. In my opinion if you have a known deficiency or a known condition some of these things can help. I take Turmeric on a doctors advice for arthritis, I noticed an improvement. If you don't have arthritis I would not expect Turmeric to treat your arthritis. Sounds silly doesn't it, to treat arthritis if you don't have arthritis. Yet many people do.

In my opinion, as long as you don't get ridiculous and overdo it I don't think moderate levels of those things will hurt. Unless you are treating something specific I also don't think they will help but others will disagree. There is a whole industry out there telling you how much they will help so you will buy their product. There is a value to you if it makes you feel better even if it actually does no good. Just don't go overboard and overdo it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

the Purina medicated feed bag says something like "to protect against coccidiosis in instances where immunity to coccidiosis is not desired" which is part of where my confusion comes in, because folks' comments and my research all indicate that it *does* promote immunity.

If your chicks are vaccinated against Coccidiosis then the Amprolium in the medicated feed might possibly prevent them from developing immunity. It might not but it possibly could. Maybe this is where they are coming from.

The medicine in Corid and most medicated feed is Amprolium. In the dosage with Corid, Amprolium quickly knocks out the bugs, it does not allow them to stay around long enough for the chicken to develop immunity. In the dosage in medicated feed Amprolium inhibits the reproduction of those bugs to try to keep the level below where your chickens would have a problem. Even on medicated feed it is possible your chickens could develop a problem with Coccidiosis but it is a lot less likely.

Just to confirm- in your experience, the combination of introducing outside dirt + keeping the brooder clean is enough to inoculate their immune systems without overwhelming them?

Keeping the brooder dry is important. That bug multiplies in wet soil or bedding that has manure in it. Dry manure is not a problem but if you let it build up it can keep itself wet.

The other important part is to keep the water clean. If your chicks are pooping in the water change it at least every other day. I do it more often (daily) but every other day is often enough to interrupt the life cycle of the bug that causes Coccidiosis. If they can't poop in the water then this is not a concern.

 

[Chicken_tiger_catt]

Hello! My partner and I are raising a flock for the first time. We have 4 Buff Orpingtons and 3 silver laced Wyandottes. They are 2 weeks old as of yesterday and from everything we can tell, they seem to be thriving! I have a couple of (hopefully quick) questions about their feed and water.

When we first got the chicks, we started them on Purina medicated feed. However, we were also using Rooster Booster for electrolytes which we realized contains thiamine, and we learned the thiamine makes the medicated feed ineffective.

My first question: Since realizing the rooster booster had thiamine, we have taken them off the medicated feed. In my understanding, they were effectively not receiving the medication due to the supplements. Since the medicated feed is only effective if started in the first couple days of life, it seemed like it didn't make sense to continue with it. However, we are still mixing some of the medicated feed in with the regular feed so as not to waste it. Could anyone confirm if our thought process is accurate here? Should we just toss the remaining medicated feed?

Second question: During this research into the medicated feed, we also learned that electrolyte mix shouldn't be used for more than a few days at a time (the mix container did not say this anywhere, but we found the info on the rooster booster website). We had the chicks on it for about the first 10 days of life and they seem to be doing great; to be cautious though, after learning this, we switched them to plain water immediately. Would it now be appropriate to start putting ACV and herbs in their water as a natural supplement? Anything I might be misnderstanding here about the purpose of electrolytes for the birds' water?

Thank you in advance for sharing your experience and knowledge

you sound like you know what you're doing. I never use medicated feed, because I don't think my chicks need it.

 

[tickens33]

you sound like you know what you're doing. I never use medicated feed, because I don't think my chicks need it.

Haha, well thanks! We did tons and tons of research before launching into this. Now in the stage of learning by trial and error

 

[nuthatched]

They can still eat the medicated feed, it won't hurt them.
They don't need any supplements, their feed is a complete diet. Acv and herbs won't help anything, they often do more harm than good.

 

[tickens33]

They can still eat the medicated feed, it won't hurt them.
They don't need any supplements, their feed is a complete diet. Acv and herbs won't help anything, they often do more harm than good.

Thank you for sharing your perspective! Would you mind elaborating re: harm caused by ACV and herbs?

 

[Chicken_tiger_catt]

They can still eat the medicated feed, it won't hurt them.
They don't need any supplements, their feed is a complete diet. Acv and herbs won't help anything, they often do more harm than good.

you get a new profile pic?

 

[nuthatched]

Thank you for sharing your perspective! Would you mind elaborating re: harm caused by ACV and herbs?

Unfortunately, it's a common misconception that prevails that 'natural' is synonymous with 'safe and healthy'. Which is misleading at best as most of the deadliest poisons and dangerous substances we know of are naturally derived from common plants. I'm all for homepathic and naturopathic medicines, but I get nervous when people have the impression that herbs can only help and never have side effects, or sprinkling fresh or dried herbs on the feed with give staggering health benefits.
Some very serious and life-threatening side effects can easily be caused by 'safe', 'natural' homeopathic remedies, no professional naturopathic physician or herbalist will tell you that they're completely safe, without chance of risk or side effects. No real doctor will make a blanket statement on any method of treatment.
The compounds in plants can vary from the individual plant, one might have little compounds, its neighbor might be unusually high, that's why herb supplements are in ground or powder form, to average the dose. Not only can the plant vary wildly but the individual being treated can vary wildly in sensitivity to treatment.
Anyway, to the information.
For example:
ACV can block calcium absorption in low or moderate amounts and cause Acidosis in high amounts.
Garlic can be toxic by causing blood thinning and anemia and even deadly in low to moderate amounts, depending on the plant and variety.
Oregano, the amounts of helpful components in oregano can vary. At best, they're eating italian flavored feed, at worst, all that is happening is continual feeding low, low doses of antibiotics. Natural or not, it's still antibiotics. If you ever need to use real medical grade oregano oil (the stuff that you'd use for infection) it may not work since there's a possibility of resistance from exposure. Though most feeds anymore have oregano in them, the meet the clamoring. Mine dose.
Oils of plants that contain Thymol (basil, oregano, rosemary, mints, etc) if dosed incorrectly can cause anemia, blood pressure problems, gastrointestinal issues, even miscarriage, etc.
Mint oils, can cause tachycardia, kidney problems, shallow breathing, neurological problems, and convulsions among others.
Ashwagandha, if you took to much of it, causes gastrointestinal upset and vomiting, but it’s also known to exacerbate thyroid issues, cause low blood pressure, and auto-immune disorders as well as being potentially harmful to the liver.
And those are just a couple of examples.