Help with confusion over electrolytes and medicated feed

[Ridgerunner]

Since the medicated feed is only effective if started in the first couple days of life

Not true at all. It can be effective any time as long as it is while they are exposed to the bug that causes Coccidiosis. Many chicks are not exposed to that bug until they are out of the brooder and on the ground. Even then some are not exposed unless that bug is in your environment.

There are some vaccines that give you immunity to certain diseases. Feed medicated with Amproleum is not one of those. It allows your chicken's body to develop immunity if it is exposed to that bug. That is a totally different thing.

I'll copy something I wrote a few years ago about medicated feed and Coccidiosis. It may clear up some misconceptions about medicated feed. If you have further questions please ask.

First you need to know what the "medicated" is in the medicated feed. It should be on the label. Usually it is Amprolium, Amprol, some such product, but until you read the label, you really don't know. Most "medicated' feed from major brands for chicks that will be layers uses Amprolium, but there are a few out there mostly for broilers, that use other medicines. I'll assume yours is an Amprolium product, but if it is not, then realize everything I say about it may not apply. And it is possible that the "medicated" is Amprolium AND something else.

Amprolium is not an antibiotic. It does not kill anything. It inhibits the protozoa that cause coccidiosis (often called Cocci on this forum) from multiplying in the chicken's system. It does not prevent the protozoa from multiplying; it just slows that multiplication down. There are several different strains of protozoa that can cause Cocci, some more severe than others. Chickens can develop immunity to a specific strain of the protozoa, but that does not give them immunity to all protozoa that cause Cocci.

It is not a big deal for the chicken’s intestines to contain some of the protozoa that cause Cocci. The problem comes in when the number of those protozoa gets huge. The protozoa can multiply in the chicken’s intestines but also in wet manure. For them to reproduce they need some moisture. Slightly damp isn't an issue, soaking wet is. Different protozoa strains have different strengths, but for almost all cases, if you keep the brooder dry, you will not have a problem.

To develop immunity to a specific strain, that protozoa needs to be in the chicks intestines for two or three weeks. The normal sequence is that a chick has the protozoa. It poops and some of the cysts that develop the protozoa come out in the poop. If the poop is slightly damp, those cysts develop and will then develop in the chick's intestines when the chicks eat that poop. This cycle needs go on for a few weeks so all chicks are exposed and they are exposed long enough to develop immunity. A couple of important points here. You do need to watch them to see if they are getting sick. And the key is to keep the brooder dry yet allow some of the poop to stay damp. Not soaking wet, just barely damp. Wet poop can lead to serious problems.

What sometimes happens is that people keep chicks in a brooder and feed them medicated feed while they are in the brooder. Those chicks are never exposed to the Cocci protozoa that lives in the dirt in their run, so they never develop the immunity to it. Then, they are switched to non-medicated feed and put on the ground where they are for the first time exposed to the protozoa. They do not have immunity, they do not have the protection of the medicated feed, so they get sick. Feeding medicated feed while in the brooder was a complete waste.

I do not feed medicated feed. I keep the brooder dry to not allow the protozoa to breed uncontrollably. The third day that they are in the brooder, I take a scoop of dirt from the run and feed it to them so I can introduce the protozoa and they can develop the immunity they need to the strain they need to develop an immunity to. Since I keep my brooder extremely dry and the water clean the protozoa can't reproduce so every three days I give them more dirt from the run so they get more protozoa and can develop immunity. I don't lose chicks to Cocci when they hit the ground.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeding medicated feed to chicks, whether the protozoa are present or not. It will not hurt them. They can still develop the immunity they need. But unless the protozoa are present, it also does no good.

If you get your chicks vaccinated for Cocci, do not feed medicated feed. It can negate the vaccinations.

Should we just toss the remaining medicated feed?

I see no reason to waste that feed. You can either feed just it or you can mix it with something else.

Second question: During this research into the medicated feed, we also learned that electrolyte mix shouldn't be used for more than a few days at a time (the mix container did not say this anywhere, but we found the info on the rooster booster website). We had the chicks on it for about the first 10 days of life and they seem to be doing great; to be cautious though, after learning this, we switched them to plain water immediately. Would it now be appropriate to start putting ACV and herbs in their water as a natural supplement? Anything I might be misnderstanding here about the purpose of electrolytes for the birds' water?

You can get all kinds of differing opinions on practically any topic on this forum. Some people use all kinds of different things as supplements for themselves or for their chickens. Others don't. In my opinion if you have a known deficiency or a known condition some of these things can help. I take Turmeric on a doctors advice for arthritis, I noticed an improvement. If you don't have arthritis I would not expect Turmeric to treat your arthritis. Sounds silly doesn't it, to treat arthritis if you don't have arthritis. Yet many people do.

In my opinion, as long as you don't get ridiculous and overdo it I don't think moderate levels of those things will hurt. Unless you are treating something specific I also don't think they will help but others will disagree. There is a whole industry out there telling you how much they will help so you will buy their product. There is a value to you if it makes you feel better even if it actually does no good. Just don't go overboard and overdo it.

 

[tickens33]

First of all- thank you so much for taking the time to write this response Second, I have actually read your old post before haha, I have been lurking on this forum for weeks before we even got the chicks!! Having read that post is part of why I decided to discontinue the medicated feed for now, because it seemed pointless when they haven't been exposed to anything yet as far as I know.

Not true at all. It can be effective any time as long as it is while they are exposed to the bug that causes Coccidiosis. Many chicks are not exposed to that bug until they are out of the brooder and on the ground. Even then some are not exposed unless that bug is in your environment.

This brings me to a related question that I did make a separate thread for, but since you have been so helpful I'll ask you here- is now the time to start introducing dirt into their brooder so they can get that exposure? They're 2 weeks old as of yesterday.

For context- they are going to be moved to a hobby farm when they are ready to go into their coop; the next time we'd be able to get out there is a few days from now. We're in a city apartment and garden in containers (our backyard is a concrete slab). So the only dirt I'd be able to give them is out of our containers, so it originally was store-bought potting mix, or from the parkway across the street which is probably full of heavy metals and pesticides (edit because I hit post too soon-) So is it important for them to start building that immunity asap? Or would it be better to wait and get the more "pure" dirt from where their coop will be? TIA!!!

 

[tickens33]

Not true at all. It can be effective any time as long as it is while they are exposed to the bug that causes Coccidiosis. Many chicks are not exposed to that bug until they are out of the brooder and on the ground. Even then some are not exposed unless that bug is in your environment.

Also on this- is there any further reading you can direct me to regarding the effectiveness of starting medicated feed when they are older? I feel like I've seen so much about it only working if you get it into their system early. Not that I don't believe you, what you're saying makes sense, I'm just really confused by all of this

When we do start introducing them to dirt, we've got liquid corid on hand in case there's an outbreak, but I'd certainly rather prevent one in the first place!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

is now the time to start introducing dirt into their brooder so they can get that exposure? They're 2 weeks old as of yesterday.

The only dirt that will make a difference in exposing them to what is in your environment is the dirt from where they will be living. You don't know what is in the dirt from the parkway. It may or may not have heavy metals, pesticides, or diseases you don't want to introduce them to. The only dirt I'd want to introduce them to is the dirt from where they are going to live. They are going to be exposed to that anyway at some point so get them started now. But don't expose them to something they don't need to be exposed to.

It is not that the dirt they will be living in is "pure". I see no need to expose them to things they don't have to be exposed to.

I feel like I've seen so much about it only working if you get it into their system early.

Are you sure you are talking about Amprolium, which is the medicine in medicated feed that any or this applies to. There are many vaccines such as Marek's or Coccidiosis where it needs time to work before the vaccine protects them.

My first comment in that write-up is that you need to know which medicine you are talking about. Amprolium is not a vaccine and does not work like one. It does not give immunity. It helps keep the number of bugs that cause the problems with Coccidiosis in check so their bodies can develop immunity if that bug is present.

 

[tickens33]

The only dirt that will make a difference in exposing them to what is in your environment is the dirt from where they will be living. You don't know what is in the dirt from the parkway. It may or may not have heavy metals, pesticides, or diseases you don't want to introduce them to. The only dirt I'd want to introduce them to is the dirt from where they are going to live. They are going to be exposed to that anyway at some point so get them started now. But don't expose them to something they don't need to be exposed to.

It is not that the dirt they will be living in is "pure". I see no need to expose them to things they don't have to be exposed to.

Yeah, pure was maybe not the best word choice, I just meant that it's unaffected/less affected by the city pollution

Are you sure you are talking about Amprolium, which is the medicine in medicated feed that any or this applies to. There are many vaccines such as Marek's or Coccidiosis where it needs time to work before the vaccine protects them.

My first comment in that write-up is that you need to know which medicine you are talking about. Amprolium is not a vaccine and does not work like one. It does not give immunity. It helps keep the number of bugs that cause the problems with Coccidiosis in check so their bodies can develop immunity if that bug is present.

To the best of my knowledge, I have read before that amprolium as a prophylactic is only effective if started early. Definitely possible that I'm misremembering but I feel like I have seen that everywhere.

Also, the Purina medicated feed bag says something like "to protect against coccidiosis in instances where immunity to coccidiosis is not desired" which is part of where my confusion comes in, because folks' comments and my research all indicate that it *does* promote immunity.

I'm just trying to do the best thing for my birds but there's a lot of conflicting info to the point where I'm hesitant to do much of anything!

Just to confirm- in your experience, the combination of introducing outside dirt + keeping the brooder clean is enough to inoculate their immune systems without overwhelming them? Any other practices you would recommend?

 

[Ridgerunner]

the Purina medicated feed bag says something like "to protect against coccidiosis in instances where immunity to coccidiosis is not desired" which is part of where my confusion comes in, because folks' comments and my research all indicate that it *does* promote immunity.

If your chicks are vaccinated against Coccidiosis then the Amprolium in the medicated feed might possibly prevent them from developing immunity. It might not but it possibly could. Maybe this is where they are coming from.

The medicine in Corid and most medicated feed is Amprolium. In the dosage with Corid, Amprolium quickly knocks out the bugs, it does not allow them to stay around long enough for the chicken to develop immunity. In the dosage in medicated feed Amprolium inhibits the reproduction of those bugs to try to keep the level below where your chickens would have a problem. Even on medicated feed it is possible your chickens could develop a problem with Coccidiosis but it is a lot less likely.

Just to confirm- in your experience, the combination of introducing outside dirt + keeping the brooder clean is enough to inoculate their immune systems without overwhelming them?

Keeping the brooder dry is important. That bug multiplies in wet soil or bedding that has manure in it. Dry manure is not a problem but if you let it build up it can keep itself wet.

The other important part is to keep the water clean. If your chicks are pooping in the water change it at least every other day. I do it more often (daily) but every other day is often enough to interrupt the life cycle of the bug that causes Coccidiosis. If they can't poop in the water then this is not a concern.