Help with Coop- Sand Issues

[Kezs]

We decided to go with Sand for our coop and run due to the information I researched on the cost, smell, heat retention, dusting, and ease of cleaning. We also are in Texas, so we have a 2 story coop (bottom for ducks, top for chickens) that has only 3 walls to allow the coop to stay cool (we will have a 4th wall for in the winter, but 90% of the year the open area is better). Other than the back 4 feet enclosed on 3 sides by wood, the rest is hardware cloth over a wood frame to keep all predators out. The chickens couldn't scratch into the ground with hardware cloth bottom so sand seemed like the perfect solution. Especially since we plan to fence in an additional 15x15 foot area in the next month or so that they will have access to the regular ground for during the day. It worked well...at first. We've had it about 3 weeks, and we have 6 chickens and 2 ducks that are about 7 weeks old.

The problem we're having is that the sand never seems to be dry except in the chicken's part of the coop off the ground, so we are getting flies, a horrid smell from the poop, and we can't scoop it because it's wet. The ducks are getting water EVERYWHERE from the waterer in order to splash their heads! We put in a little pool to give them somewhere to swim so they would hopefully stop draining the 1 gallon waterer 3 times a day, and they are still draining it every 3-4 hours. The sand is a constant puddle around the waterer, and the rest of the sand just draws the water so the whole coop is staying wet.

Not only is it a smell and cleaning issue, but this can't be good for the chickens feet and they can't dust to clean themselves. Does anyone have ANY ideas? building a separate duck coop isn't really feasible due to the way the yard is laid out. I don't want to get rid of the ducks, they are actually my favorites to watch even thought he chickens are much more friendly.

I'm really hoping someone can help me with ideas.

 

[ColoradoPip]

If the sand doesn't dry, you and your birds are going to be miserable.

If you can post pics that will help people provide suggestions. At a high level, you need to do the following:
1) Prevent the sand from getting soaked
2) Ensure it can dry, sunlight hits it, etc.

I don't have ducks, but why are the waterer and pool two separate things? Maybe put the waterer into a cake pan or something to catch the water. Seems like an easy problem to solve at least!

 

[Acre4Me]

How big is the current run? Can you place the duck pool onto some gravel (or porous pavers, etc) so the water drains elsewhere?

 

[rosemarythyme]

How's the drainage in the area? No problems before the ducks and chickens?

I'd consider trying deep litter instead of sand, since that tolerates getting wet much better than sand. But if there's any existing drainage issues it's going to be hard getting rid of smells entirely.

 

[paintedChix]

Ducks and chickens may not work together in the coop with any water at all. It "sounds" like your run/coop are extremely small when chicks and ducks can keep it too wet already - when they are only 4-7 weeks old (you stated you've had them out there 3 weeks and they are 7 weeks old now). Ducks use the water every time they eat to wash their food down/clear their snares (nostrils) and they splash and they make a wet mash mess. That's how they eat (there is a name for it, can't dredge it from my brain... duck people in the duck section of BYC would know). Then you have a 2nd pool in there for them to splash and play in.

As stated above, the waterer can be put into another container (a shallow tray like for extreme vehicle mats, a box made of wood that is short enough that the ducks can step over). The waterer can be put on top of a box made of 2x4's with HC on it, but if the sand outside that box is going to draw the water anyway, it's not going to work for the purpose intended.

I'm not sure how to tell you to fix it. We previously had our 5 Swedish ducks in a pen with our rabbits. It is under our carport and was on bricks like a patio. The chickens that did access the pen were/are a handful of free range bantams that dropped down into it to eat the duck feed or drink water but they didn't stay in it. Size? A puppy X-pen that was opened out and another similar pen that was attached. Not real large. The hay and duck feces did get wet in the area with the water tub and even when we just had 2 ltr bottles w/ drinker tubes (the ducks would scoop up a bill of feed, go to the drinker and spill a bunch of water as they tried to rinse/wash their feed and clear their snares), that area stayed wet - but the water then drained through the bricks down to the earth below. We DO have flies (and lots of spider webs that I don't remove anymore as the spiders will eat the flies, LOL) there right at our back door. The smell is now reduced - no ducks there anymore. I DID and still do use the fertilizer these animals provide - the two pens are cleaned down to the bricks 3 - 4 times a year. when the ducks were in the one pen they were in, some areas would get to be 6" deep on top of the bricks between cleaning it out. Some of it stayed wet and STANK like ducks as you removed it. The grand kids would pull up large, packed areas and their hands would smell for a couple of days - no matter how much they washed, LOL. (what are gloves grandma?)



Now our 4 ducks (we lost one before moving them out to the front yard) are mature and pretty large. We moved them to the front yard in a 500' poultry net that is never completely one shape (we move it). They currently have an actual pond (man made & lined in plastic) that they can access - we are getting ready to move the nets completely away from "their" pond, put that netting around some really tall/weedy grass areas with a kiddie swimming pool and EACH DAY, as the pool turns nasty, dump that water into the little fruit trees that the netting is either around or next to. We will be bucket draining the "in-ground" pond of it's green scum nasty-ness - carrying the buckets to those same trees, the black berries, the blueberries etc etc. In all the rain we've had, we've never had the "pond" completely fill and go "over the top", so there has to be some type of drainage that the excess water can go through that I just don't see. We've never had it completely empty before but when we did take it down to almost the bottom 2 years ago, we did take out all types of trash that had no business being in a "pond" that has critters in it - some were like fish tank/aquarium deco, but the rest - pieces of steel beams that I have no idea what were for originally, the other things that sank that I think our granddaughters found and tossed in and sank (or the original owners did - have no idea). Now the pond is at a higher level, not full, but we aren't able to drain it and the ducks have turned it nasty and I worry that they will get sick. Plus their duck "nastiness" and the green scum on top (not duck weed) will be great for the young trees.

Pics of the "pond" first to give you some perspective -



Ducks don't scratch quite the same way chickens do, but they can de-vegetate an area almost as fast as chickens can. I will try to do a series of pics for you - in our front yard (don't have a clue how big it is, but it's not small) as I move the poultry netting around. I can show you some pics below taken on the same day... I will have to crop/name some more pics that I've cropped the duck area out of. Give me a bit.

Here is one that I had cropped the "pond" out of - it's kinda nasty/gross and I didn't want it to show... The poultry netting is behind that bunch of tall grass. The Swedish hen is in another set of bunch grass (it too has a name that I'm not remembering right now - makes great coverage on compost piles every fall, though). The 3rd pic shows the extra growth (a lot of it is weeds, but that's ok to us BECAUSE it is covering the sand) around the chicken tractors in our front yard (right next to the duck area actually)... That is part of the area we will be moving the netting to for the ducks & will provide a "pond" (kiddie pool) for them.



AS to sand - too bad you didn't read all the bad things about sand in a chicken coop (or maybe you did?). GAK. I can't stand sand in a coop or run. Lots of issues for me - smell being a big one - even without ducks. But it rains a lot here and it's humid. The sand, even clean sand that friends of mine brought in for their own chicken runs, stinks after chickens and/or ducks have been on it a few weeks. 3 of our acquaintances have dug out their sandy runs and now use DLM, not sand. Much nicer for the chickens (none have ducks) and for all of the humans. I'm just layering DLM over the sand (I can not physically dig it all out, nor do I want to - have no where that I'd want to put it!) and as it mixes it's becoming a sandy/loamy type of compost that I can then dig out a little at a time and use (I HAVE).

But then our whole 21 acres are nothing but sand that only supports weeds and we are using the ducks and chickens, rabbits & ponies/horses to fertilize and bring back some type of fertile soil that will support gorgeous pasture grasses, make deep litter and compost and bring bug life back to the open pastures. The sand here - STINKS when it rains. It does drain, doesn't stay wet, but it stinks after the rain for a while (uuhhh - days). I have been told that the pony pastures were once cropped as corn and as .... maybe soy beans? not sure. Not fertile enough for hay. We have open expanses that we are getting covered in wood chips (2 dump truck loads so far - probably need 5-6 more just for the sandy areas) between some of our pony pens. That's working better - no STINK from the rain we've had constantly this year, still good &/or better drainage. When digging out the 3 - 8x8 hoop coops (DLM for the chickens - wholly to use in the pastures and garden areas) in our pony pasture - we just pitched it out into the sand right in front of the coops and watched it disappear into that sand over a couple of days. I'm now expanding the numbers of ducks and chickens that will be in tractors (too many things stealing them when free ranging). We've reduced our pony population (we did have too many when we first arrived and the little bit of bunch grasses were soon gone and weeds grew back). We went from 30 ponies down to 10. They still have hay provided 24/7 as they always have. The perimeter pasture that is somewhat cleared and was fenced in sheep field fence when we moved in, is approximately 5-7 acres. We built different paddocks inside that for groups of ponies - numbering from 3 to 8 in a paddock or pen. For now, we are not doing other grazing critters (goats/sheep/pigs) as I work full time and the other family members don't want to deal with livestock at all - just getting help with chickens and ducks, ponies and watering baby fruit trees garners heavy complaint (that might stop this fall - all 4 of the pear trees & 3 peach trees are loaded with fruit that seems to have survived the freeze here in NC two weeks ago). So that will wait until I return to part time work OR retire. The goal is to have pasture that is rotated, having chickens follow the larger stock and clearing parasites/spreading the manure behind the grazing critters that will eventually become better quality, different types of knee deep grasses, herbs... Maybe some day. I want to have milk goats and meat (sheep, goat, pigs?) from our little 21 acre slice of heaven. We certainly aren't there yet... LOL. Our acreage is big enough to do more animals - especially types that will help to restore the land - but it takes time to care for them and to move the rotational paddocks/pens around. The land will not support any of the critters w/o them being fed to their nutritional needs at this time - but the goal is to eventually not have to buy all the feed that we currently do.

When I was researching ducks, I found some neat pics on line of different duck set ups. Don't think any of these were pulled from BYC - but from Google images. I can do a different post with some of those ideas if you want. Most show some type of "pool/pond" set up in the air or on rocks for drainage. A couple are in ground - similar to our "pond".

 

[paintedChix]

Here are some pics of our rabbit pen that also housed our 5 ducks for over a year before we moved them out to the front yard in poultry netting. This is over a 2 day period of cleaning. shows how much build up there was and how wet it was 2 days after cleaning the area where the water tub is...



That "stuff" is basically built up alfalfa & timothy hay, rabbit & duck feces, weeds that don't get eaten that are pulled for them. When it's cold during the winter - we did put down straw and shredded paper/cardboard - but I don't have pics of that...

The feed bags - we keep and we put "compost" in them from the rabbit/duck pen, from our rabbits out in our pony pasture (behind the barn), put pony manure in them to haul to various garden areas, put shredded paper/cardboard in from the house to haul out to garden, chicken coops/nest boxes and compost pile... LOVE feed bags!!

Edited to add - The ducks and rabbits got along fine. Both the Swedish Black/Blue ducks and my new ducklings (Ancona's) are non-flying dual purpose breeds (meat and eggs). We did have two of the rabbits jump the shorter fence by the larger hutch - they made it through the front yard and across that open expanse of pasture to the barn in 2017. Where both girls dug major barrows under/through the barn (sits directly on the ground - sand floor). I didn't take everything out of the barn (it's used to store hay/feed and tack/equipment for the ponies, not to house the ponies) and repair/fill them back in. This year, I plan on unloading the 3 "stalls" so that we can address/back fill those crazy barrows! I'm tired of dealing with them...

I'm considering putting some ducks back on the paved area. Why? They make wonderful compostable stuff that works well on our garden areas when mixed with the rabbits... Maybe 2 ducks instead of 5. Quick, easy fertilizer & hopefully ducks aren't too upset by not having free range... We shall see.

Would love to see pictures of your current set up. And want to know what you ultimately do to fix the issue you are having.

 

[Kezs]

I have been dealing with the kids the last 2 days (we have 7, so when they need help everything stops!) and starting to rebuild our fence. You guys are awesome! I will go ahead and post pictures and describe everything in detail tomorrow morning when I can take some pictures of our setup in the daylight.

 

[Kezs]

OK, sorry it took so long! Here are pictures of the coop and run. It is 4ftx15ft, and the coop area is 4ftx4ft. The plan was to build a duck coop/nesting area under the chicken coop in the next few weeks. Next to the coop/run is the 15x15 trampoline that we will be fencing in so they can run underneath it when the kids aren't jumping. There is a hanging waterer, and they were going through 3 of them a day until I put in the bucket/swimming area, now they are going through 1 1/2 a day. They rarely swim in it, but they do dunk their heads in it a little. The bricks are there in case a chicken falls in. The kids are also raking the area daily to help the sand dry. We are thinking of moving the ducks to a separate coop that would be under stairs up to the trampoline, but I don't know of a way to predator proof it. Also, would they be able to run underneath the trampoline with the chickens in the future or will they make it too wet if the pool is in a corner?

 

[Kezs]

Well, we decided to try to separate them before we get rid of them. The ducks are getting a house under a staircase that will lead up to the trampoline, giving them a house that is 3 1/2ft x 4ft. We're going to enclose a smallish area with a pool (about 5x8) that is predator proof in case we have to leave for a day or two, and also have a door to the 15ft x 15ft area under the trampoline that will be a combined chicken/duck outdoor run. Hopefully this will work! If it does, the only challenge remaining will be if the ducks are OK as a pair rather than 1 male to a group of females. Wish me luck, and thank you for your advice! I'll try to update with pictures when we are done this weekend.