Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Hi Arielle and Dragonlady,
Thank you for the good counsel. Ok, breed the birds, not the records. No, I haven't talked to Walt B.
Guess I should call him and discuss the season, make some plans. I'll post a notice at our local Agway,
good idea.
Thanks,
Karen

 

[Pozees]

My guess is Walt B. will have valuable input on what you are seeing. Seems like I remember Bob Blosl telling us to "get you a good type female" to get males with good type, then breed the male offspring back to the dam. I wonder if that would produce pullets with better type?

 

[fowlman01]

Just remembered what day this is...

[COLOR=FF0000]Happy Birthday Walt!!![/COLOR]

thanks for the birthday wishes. I have just returned from a show in Ventura. 1000 miles round trip. It's great to see the continued participation in this thread.

Walt

 

[Tammy N]

Quote: Forgive me for laughing at your last papagraph--- I suspect mother nature will have the upper hand again soon and she will be making the decisions again. THere has been a drastic change in the handling of some childhood diseases but I'm concerned it is after the fact. Meaning ther are a number of easy answers to reduce the exposure as well as up the immune system of a child. I feed my kids high quality foods, including vegetables, salads, fruits etc. My kids never get ear aches . . . . but I can't keep them from contracting strep several times a year . . . along with all their classmates. WHat are we doing . . . .
So all of you who Believe MG is rampant and not a Problem ................. Maybe thats why it is Rampant . you treat your birds figure the birds that live are ok Get eggs cull those Birds but why Hatch eggs that have MG that No med will Kill . the MG resides in the Fluids . OH yeah egg yolk is not a fluid right ?
Back when i started wth chickens 35 some Yrs ago These Diseases where not hardly even heard of . I am sorry but just because you treat your birds and keep the babies is like saying a person that takes medication for Aids is safe to have sex with . Or that you can use a condom and not get pregnant or HIV . Do you all realize how this kinda action will spread this issue farther and farther , OK so your birds built up and immunity but what about the show birds i had from NY they where not immune because they where well taken care of ? they are the first to go , Thanks all i am reading but i do not think medication is a happy life for a Bird that is sick nor do i think letting them suffer threw the Disease is a way to go sure culling off the ones that show signs is a great way right ? so Mg is a Slow Disease sometimes you see nothing but the birds are still sick. sometimes you see it and kill out those birds. and slowly kill off birds showing disease in the mean time how many are you saving that have the disease spreading to Wild birds and animals. State vet asked me why did you kill off all your birds I showed him my parrot that means more then the chickens who are sick after treating the chickens your not supposed to eat the eggs , NOW Have any of you asked Why ? Because they have Mg , Out of the box and still reading thanks for posting i am learning as well but also have to state my Opinions

 

[Beekissed]

So all of you who Believe MG is rampant and not a Problem ................. Maybe thats why it is Rampant . you treat your birds figure the birds that live are ok Get eggs cull those Birds but why Hatch eggs that have MG that No med will Kill . the MG resides in the Fluids . OH yeah egg yolk is not a fluid right ?
Back when i started wth chickens 35 some Yrs ago These Diseases where not hardly even heard of . I am sorry but just because you treat your birds and keep the babies is like saying a person that takes medication for Aids is safe to have sex with . Or that you can use a condom and not get pregnant or HIV . Do you all realize how this kinda action will spread this issue farther and farther , OK so your birds built up and immunity but what about the show birds i had from NY they where not immune because they where well taken care of ? they are the first to go , Thanks all i am reading but i do not think medication is a happy life for a Bird that is sick nor do i think letting them suffer threw the Disease is a way to go sure culling off the ones that show signs is a great way right ? so Mg is a Slow Disease sometimes you see nothing but the birds are still sick. sometimes you see it and kill out those birds. and slowly kill off birds showing disease in the mean time how many are you saving that have the disease spreading to Wild birds and animals. State vet asked me why did you kill off all your birds I showed him my parrot that means more then the chickens who are sick after treating the chickens your not supposed to eat the eggs , NOW Have any of you asked Why ? Because they have Mg , Out of the box and still reading thanks for posting i am learning as well but also have to state my Opinions

I've never had MG in any of my flocks and I don't hold with the idea that it's rampant, as I had never even heard of that disease or any of the other poultry illnesses until I joined BYC. If I did have an illness go through my flock of some kind, yes, my approach would be to cull those with the worst symptoms and keep those who had possibly been exposed but had no apparent symptoms and breed those birds. One of the reasons I have the luxury of this thought process is because I don't show, move or sell my birds to anyone as a matter of course~it's a rare thing if birds ever leave my place unless they are inside someone's gut. It's an all in or all out approach for me.

Having said that, if I were inclined to show my birds and they were to be exposed to other birds at show, I'd still be dependent upon hardy immune systems to protect them...particularly in a heritage line. A hardy immune system is resistive to disease and breeding for that trait is a must, that is the primary goal in any flock, IMO. If my flock does not resist any common bug that comes down the pike then I have failed somewhere along the way. Without that trait being first and foremost in the genetics, looks and performance don't count for a hill of beans...can't breed or show a dead bird.

I applaud you for culling your flock, many would be reluctant to do so. If I had to cull a whole flock of birds, I'd be examining exactly why my methods or genetics had failed, and be using a more preventative approach in the future, learning from the experience. So, what have you done differently in your flocks since having to cull your flock with the MG?

 

[Arielle]

@ Tammy--

Sorry you lost the flock.

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

Thanks, Arielle,
I have been thinking and calculating. All three in the foundation have the same sire. But the girls(same dam) and the boy have different dams. If the problems showing in the pullets do no manifest in the sire line, then by breeding the best pullets back to the sire, I may be able to push this back to a "carrier" state. Cock A/B ex pullet A/C= A + 1/2B + 1/2C. Thus back-cross of F1 to sire A/B would yield A/B ex 1A + 1/2B + 1/2C = 1A + 3/4B + 1/4C (backcross F1 to A/B cock)This takes C back from 1/2 influence to 1/4 influence and increases cock A/ B influence to 3/4 influence. Now this is "Percentage Of Line Inheritance" work. Because of the sex-linked genes in poultry, I believe it is best used for extrapolating, not planning; for estimating art instead of science in breeding. Nevertheless, I believe it has a place as part of making ones "best guess" about a breeding. I just do not know how "sticky" a genetic feature like "cushions" is.
What I really need is some strict female family inbreeding on a couple of stunning pullets, sigh.
Best,
Karen

Karen

Do you notice the pullets with cushions have shorter backs than the dame(s)? What about narrower leg set? Width of back?

In my Rocks, I have to cull ruthlessly for these three traits in order to keep cushions out.

I would certainly take the BEST cockerel you have, with the longest back (even if tail set is less than ideal) and widest leg stance and run him back across his mother/aunt

 

[RedRidge]

 
So all of you who Believe MG is rampant and not a Problem ................. Maybe thats why it is Rampant . you treat your birds figure the birds that live are ok Get eggs cull those Birds but why Hatch eggs that have MG that No med will Kill . the MG resides in the Fluids . OH yeah egg yolk is not a fluid right ? 
Back when i started wth chickens 35 some Yrs ago These Diseases where not hardly even heard of . I am sorry but just because you treat your birds and keep the babies is like saying a person that takes medication for Aids is safe to have sex with . Or that you can use a condom and not get pregnant or HIV . Do you all realize how this kinda action will spread this issue farther and farther , OK so your birds built up and immunity but what about the show birds i had from NY they where not immune because they where well taken care of ? they are the first to go , Thanks all i am reading but i do not think medication is a happy life for a Bird that is sick nor do i think letting them suffer threw the Disease is a way to go sure culling off the ones that show signs is a great way right ? so Mg is a Slow Disease sometimes you see nothing but the birds are still sick. sometimes you see it and kill out those birds. and slowly kill off birds showing disease in the mean time how many are you saving that have the disease spreading to Wild birds and animals. State vet asked me why did you kill off all your birds I showed him my parrot that means more then the chickens who are sick after treating the chickens your not supposed to eat the eggs , NOW Have any of you asked Why ? Because they have Mg , Out of the box and still reading thanks for posting i am learning as well but also have to state my Opinions 

I've never had MG in any of my flocks and I don't hold with the idea that it's rampant, as I had never even heard of that disease or any of the other poultry illnesses until I joined BYC.  If I did have an illness go through my flock of some kind, yes, my approach would be to cull those with the worst symptoms and keep those who had possibly been exposed but had no apparent symptoms and breed those birds.  One of the reasons I have the luxury of this thought process is because I don't show, move or sell my birds to anyone as a matter of course~it's a rare thing if birds ever leave my place unless they are inside someone's gut.  It's an all in or all out approach for me.

Having said that, if I were inclined to show my birds and they were to be exposed to other birds at show, I'd still be dependent upon hardy immune systems to protect them...particularly in a heritage line.  A hardy immune system is resistive to disease and breeding for that trait is a must, that is the primary goal in any flock, IMO.  If my flock does not resist any common bug that comes down the pike then I have failed somewhere along the way.  Without that trait being first and foremost in the genetics, looks and performance don't count for a hill of beans...can't breed or show a dead bird.

I applaud you for culling your flock, many would be reluctant to do so.  If I had to cull a whole flock of birds, I'd be examining exactly why my methods or genetics had failed, and be using a more preventative approach in the future, learning from the experience.  So, what have you done differently in your flocks since having to cull your flock with the MG?  

When making generalities about health and natural resistance one needs to take location into account also.
The old farmer's rule"always buy South to North and east to West" still applies today and applies to poultry as well as other livestock.
The point is you need to understand the consequences of purchasing livestock... Not just "from who" but "from where".
Resistance is flock specific and is frequently location specific.
Use heartworm in dogs or Barber pole worms in sheep as an example. Flocks/herds/animals with resistance to those things are properly managed animals that have been exposed and then bred and culled to perpetuate resistance.
Purchasing resistance is a start, but when relocating animals some attrition must be taken into account.
Bottom line. .. you will NEVER purchase animals who are healthier than what you can breed if you have sound breeding practices.

 

[bnjrob]

So all of you who Believe MG is rampant and not a Problem ................. Maybe thats why it is Rampant . you treat your birds figure the birds that live are ok Get eggs cull those Birds but why Hatch eggs that have MG that No med will Kill . the MG resides in the Fluids . OH yeah egg yolk is not a fluid right ?
Back when i started wth chickens 35 some Yrs ago These Diseases where not hardly even heard of . I am sorry but just because you treat your birds and keep the babies is like saying a person that takes medication for Aids is safe to have sex with . Or that you can use a condom and not get pregnant or HIV . Do you all realize how this kinda action will spread this issue farther and farther , OK so your birds built up and immunity but what about the show birds i had from NY they where not immune because they where well taken care of ? they are the first to go , Thanks all i am reading but i do not think medication is a happy life for a Bird that is sick nor do i think letting them suffer threw the Disease is a way to go sure culling off the ones that show signs is a great way right ? so Mg is a Slow Disease sometimes you see nothing but the birds are still sick. sometimes you see it and kill out those birds. and slowly kill off birds showing disease in the mean time how many are you saving that have the disease spreading to Wild birds and animals. State vet asked me why did you kill off all your birds I showed him my parrot that means more then the chickens who are sick after treating the chickens your not supposed to eat the eggs , NOW Have any of you asked Why ? Because they have Mg , Out of the box and still reading thanks for posting i am learning as well but also have to state my Opinions

Your statement that "These Diseases where not hardly even heard of" - is more of an indication of lack of knowledge 35 years ago than indication the disease wasn't around. Back then, hundreds of thousands of people were not connecting and sharing information via the internet. There was no internet and no social media sites for people to quickly exchange information. I imagine that if MG were the most pressing illness 35+ years ago, the government would have likely had a big push to get information to the general public about MG and started demanding wide scale testing and monitoring. Obviously this didn't happen. The lack of MG being heard of back then may be more a sign of ignorance of the disease on the part of chicken keepers, not evidence that the disease wasn't around.

In addition, a chicken can have one sneeze that is never heard by a human or never have any symptoms at all and still be a carrier. So unless everyone that kept birds since the beginning of the 20th century (when the symptoms were noted in turkeys) had their birds tested, consistently and repeatedly, there is no way to know exactly how many birds carried MG.

And then you will need to factor in that there were wild birds, who if they weren't originally carriers, could have become carriers via infected poultry flocks and that they have also been spreading MG for the last 100+ yrs since MG symptoms were first seen.

Let's not forget that medical knowledge and testing has continued to increase and improve since the mid 20th century. I highly doubt that there was a plethora of laboratories testing for MG in poultry flocks "back then". I'm sure commercial flock keepers were testing, but not farmers, families, or poultry fanciers. When there is increase in the prevalence of a disease, you have to look at whether or not there was an improvement in detection ability as well as an increase in testing, and an increase in recognition of symptoms to prompt testing and diagnosis. You can't just jump to the conclusion that a disease is more prevalent now simply because it is detected more often.

We also have many more flocks, both commercial and now backyard flocks, than were around in the 20th century (corresponding with an increase in the human population). When so many more people are keeping chickens these days, there are more eyes on the birds to see if there is a problem. Backyard chicken keepers are more likely to notice a problem than the farmer (today's farmer or "back then" who lets his chickens run free and if some die, oh well, he doesn't do a necropsy or send specimens to the lab to see what the chicken died of. And if one of them looks sick, the farmer uses an axe and gets rid of it not bothering to see why the chicken was looking puny, sneezing, and not eating.

And then with the advent of the internet to share information - of course it seems like there is so much more MG going around than there was 35 years ago.

Personally, to me your opinion seems to come from someone who is hurt and angry about what happened to their birds and looking to find blame as a way to deal with the grief that I imagine you must feel. Having to make a decision to euthanize an animal that you care about is one of the kindest decisions you can make. And one of the most difficult. I'm sorry for your loss but I don't feel that your opinion has much factual basis.

 

[chickadoodles]

I have a Hispanic family (huge) that will buy all the eggs and culls I can provide for $3 (per 18 eggs or 1 bird). I offered to give them the roosters and I get one out of every three back ready for the freezer! I will be hatching LOTS of chicks!!

I was selling my Roosters for 8.00. I ran out of roosters and I have been hatching them. But it will be spring before I have any more birds for them. I tried going to some auctions to get some for them. But dang they are selling roosters for 12.00 and up! I am not paying that! I will keep on hatching! lol