Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[finnfur]

Bob Blosi (aka Blosl) made some excellent posts on this topic in the original Heritage Large Fowl thread. I thought I had saved some of those line breeding posts for future reference, but they have gone missing. If I find them I will re-post it here.

Welcome, Ashlieneevel
THIS IS THE LINK TO THE OLD THREAD OF BOB S [ RIP ]
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/400344/bob-blosls-heritage-large-fowl-thread
Lots of great info there

 

[ashlieneevel]

Thanks finnfur. Karen gave me that link earlier this evening and I will be starting to read that here in the very near future. thanks for your reply

 

[gjensen]

Thanks for your reply and the welcome

I'm fairly certain I understand the basic premise of the program, but what I am having trouble understanding specifically is the foundation stock and more specifically how many and where should they come from. Naturally I understand you want to start with good stock to begin with so thats not the question. Unless I am missing an alternative, I see only two options for foundation stock, and with both i can see pros and cons of these options.

Option 1: Get 3 sets of trios all from the same breeder/line. One Trio becomes Pen A , the next Pen B, the next Pen C. Now if these trios were of the same line but not the same clutch I could see how this would work but if they were too closely related it would seem that this style of breeding would be redundant in that scenario, but perhaps i'm wrong.

Option 2: Get 3 sets of trios from separate independent breeders where each set embodies a quality that compliments or strengthens a quality lacking or not found in another. Now I see how this could be a good thing but I also see how this could go from terrific original breeders to muddy waters very quickly.

Maybe there is some other option or variation that I am completely missing. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case because to date,i've invested a whopping 2 days into researching this thus far.

If I had to guess from my options I listed, I would guess that Option 1 was the way to go so long as their was a bit of distance between the trios and then later on down the road you could introduce other stock into the program to add for vigor and other traits. I think to go with the other option from the start, and especially by a person who wasn't particularly skilled, would just be undoing all the hard work the previous breeders had put into their birds. Again maybe I'm missing something, it wouldn't be the first time.

Past the point of the initial stock, I understand how to rotate them through and that there is the need to cull ruthlessly. i also understand that the culling part takes particular skill in identifying what needs to go or stay and also when it needs to go or stay. I am sure I can learn more about that from studying more in depth on the subject. I fully intend to start at the beginning of this thread and its predecessor and work my way forward for a deeper understanding.

Another question that I am bouncing around in my mind is if it is advisable, or at the very least acceptable, to keep the hens separated in a way that one could monitor their individual egg production but still allow them the ability to see one another and chit chat through a barrier between runs. I know that chickens are social creatures who like to be in a flock so i'm not sure if this would be considered cruel. It sounds an awful lot like solitary confinement in a jail to me but i definitely see how it could be beneficial in a breeding program from a record keeping perspective. So any comments regarding this would be greatly appreciated. It should be noted in this scenario the chickens would not be living in a northern climate but in a sub-tropical climate (West Central Florida) where the average low ranges between 41 and 65F.

Ok I think I explained all that to the best of my abilities for what I would like to know. I hope I didn't make too much of an ... out of myself lol. Everyone was new at one point or another though. Gotta start somewhere.

Thank you very much for your time.

Warm regards,

Ashlie

You can start with one trio (or two pairs), and work in this direction. That is often all we get started with. After you get the process established, you can pick up on another bird from that breeder etc.

There is any number of things that you can do, and there is no right or wrong answer. There are countless "breeding plans" other than the one mentioned here, which historically, is mislabeled.

To begin with, for beginners, I think it is best to focus on establishing two families. Then once one is on there way, evolve as they please. All you are doing in the beginning is getting established with the best start possible. After two solid families are established, a third is easy to add etc. In fact, I am only continuing with three families. I feel that the third family is all I need. Many very good breeders only work with two.

Concerning qty. of breeders . . . . . . that varies. For depth and longevity, the smaller the families, more families. The larger quantities would require less families. The depth would be in the qty. of hens in a family (which is how I prefer to operate.) For smaller families the depth is in the qty. of breeding cocks.
For four families, 16 breeding hens and 4 breeding cocks would be my minimum.

There are no hard and fast rules here either.

The two best Minorca breeders out there run a single flock of breeding hens each. The flock is large, somewhere between 16-24 hens. The one rotates males over the course of the year on the single flock of females. These two breeders trade males between each other periodically. Basically, one breeder, one family of birds.

I point these things out to demonstrate the flexibility that you have. There are as many methods as there is people that use them.

What you start with is more about you than the bird.

To start a family, I would want the best birds possible to head up that family. Close breeding is as good for fixing the bad as it is the good.

 

[ashlieneevel]

You can start with one trio (or two pairs), and work in this direction. That is often all we get started with. After you get the process established, you can pick up on another bird from that breeder etc.

There is any number of things that you can do, and there is no right or wrong answer. There are countless "breeding plans" other than the one mentioned here, which historically, is mislabeled.

To begin with, for beginners, I think it is best to focus on establishing two families. Then once one is on there way, evolve as they please. All you are doing in the beginning is getting established with the best start possible. After two solid families are established, a third is easy to add etc. In fact, I am only continuing with three families. I feel that the third family is all I need. Many very good breeders only work with two.

Concerning qty. of breeders . . . . . . that varies. For depth and longevity, the smaller the families, more families. The larger quantities would require less families. The depth would be in the qty. of hens in a family (which is how I prefer to operate.) For smaller families the depth is in the qty. of breeding cocks.
For four families, 16 breeding hens and 4 breeding cocks would be my minimum.

There are no hard and fast rules here either.

The two best Minorca breeders out there run a single flock of breeding hens each. The flock is large, somewhere between 16-24 hens. The one rotates males over the course of the year on the single flock of females. These two breeders trade males between each other periodically. Basically, one breeder, one family of birds.

I point these things out to demonstrate the flexibility that you have. There are as many methods as there is people that use them.

What you start with is more about you than the bird.

To start a family, I would want the best birds possible to head up that family. Close breeding is as good for fixing the bad as it is the good.

LOL totally confused now. I get there are other ways to do things but am not sure what you were describing when saying creating two families. Is there a specific name for that I can search under? lol i feel like an idiot because i can get so lost so quickly. What about answers specifically to the questions I asked or is there no answers for them because they were dumb questions?

 

[bnjrob]

Thanks for your reply and the welcome

I'm fairly certain I understand the basic premise of the program, but what I am having trouble understanding specifically is the foundation stock and more specifically how many and where should they come from. Naturally I understand you want to start with good stock to begin with so thats not the question. Unless I am missing an alternative, I see only two options for foundation stock, and with both i can see pros and cons of these options.

Option 1: Get 3 sets of trios all from the same breeder/line. One Trio becomes Pen A , the next Pen B, the next Pen C. Now if these trios were of the same line but not the same clutch I could see how this would work but if they were too closely related it would seem that this style of breeding would be redundant in that scenario, but perhaps i'm wrong.

Option 2: Get 3 sets of trios from separate independent breeders where each set embodies a quality that compliments or strengthens a quality lacking or not found in another. Now I see how this could be a good thing but I also see how this could go from terrific original breeders to muddy waters very quickly.

Maybe there is some other option or variation that I am completely missing. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case because to date,i've invested a whopping 2 days into researching this thus far.

If I had to guess from my options I listed, I would guess that Option 1 was the way to go so long as their was a bit of distance between the trios and then later on down the road you could introduce other stock into the program to add for vigor and other traits. I think to go with the other option from the start, and especially by a person who wasn't particularly skilled, would just be undoing all the hard work the previous breeders had put into their birds. Again maybe I'm missing something, it wouldn't be the first time.

Past the point of the initial stock, I understand how to rotate them through and that there is the need to cull ruthlessly. i also understand that the culling part takes particular skill in identifying what needs to go or stay and also when it needs to go or stay. I am sure I can learn more about that from studying more in depth on the subject. I fully intend to start at the beginning of this thread and its predecessor and work my way forward for a deeper understanding.

Another question that I am bouncing around in my mind is if it is advisable, or at the very least acceptable, to keep the hens separated in a way that one could monitor their individual egg production but still allow them the ability to see one another and chit chat through a barrier between runs. I know that chickens are social creatures who like to be in a flock so i'm not sure if this would be considered cruel. It sounds an awful lot like solitary confinement in a jail to me but i definitely see how it could be beneficial in a breeding program from a record keeping perspective. So any comments regarding this would be greatly appreciated. It should be noted in this scenario the chickens would not be living in a northern climate but in a sub-tropical climate (West Central Florida) where the average low ranges between 41 and 65F.

Ok I think I explained all that to the best of my abilities for what I would like to know. I hope I didn't make too much of an ... out of myself lol. Everyone was new at one point or another though. Gotta start somewhere.

Thank you very much for your time.

Warm regards,

Ashlie

Here's the link to Bob Blosl's site in case you wanted to peruse it. http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id60.html

Here's what I have copied from some stuff that he had written on this issue:

Basics of Rotational Line Breeding in chickens
Using this method you can indefinitely breed a line of chickens without introducing new blood.
You need 4 "clans" minimum, for simplicity sake here I will assign each one a color: Red, Blue, White, Green. Each clan needs at least one male, and anywhere from one to ten hens depending on your needs. It is nice to have a back-up male of each clan in case of illness or other unexpected loss, but not needed.
Mark your birds with colored leg bands and when it's time to breed and hatch divide them by color for year one. Red male with Red Female, Blue with Blue and so on and so on. When the chicks hatch, find a way to mark them so you know what "clan" they came from. (nail polish works on chicks and then colored leg bands as they get older)
Year two, pick your best breeders that have the qualities you want (this is another discussion) and put the hens in their pens. Now put the Red males in the with the Blue hens, the Blue Males in with the White hens, and the White Males in with the Green Hens, Green males in with Red hens. Mark the chicks with the "clan" color of the hens.
Year three, select your breeders. Red males go with White hens, Blue males with Green Hens, White males with Red hens, Green males with Blue hens.
Again, mark the offspring with the color of the hens.
Repeat this every year, always moving the males one pen down the line, and always marking the chicks with the "clan" color of the hens.

Most people start out with birds that come from one flock - usually brothers and sisters - and then they set up their breeding pens. It isn't often that you are going to find a breeder that is keeping large number of birds to sell for breeding that are of different ages and not so close in familial relationship to each other. If they did that, they would be feeding many birds and require a LOT of space. Generally when you get birds, what is available is going to be what has hatched from their current breeding pens and would be considered brothers and sisters.
From what I've found personally, and what I've been told by others, poultry seem to tolerate more *inbreeding* than other types of animals before you start to see problems related to too much inbreeding. So worrying about trying to get multiple breeding groups from a bunch of different folks isn't necessary. And in fact, I would not recommend it unless you plan to breed each strain (bloodline) by themselves for several years, so you can get acquainted with their quirks, before you even attempt to cross the bloodlines with each other. It's better to get to know what the gene mix in each bloodline has before you start trying to mix bloodlines and become sorely disappointed that what you saw in the birds is not what came out in the offspring. We still occasionally get surprised by traits coming out in a hatch group that was not seen in their parents - it's just a crap shoot sometimes of how that DNA ladder gets put together.
We have more than one old bloodline and within our bloodlines, we breed from 3 males in order to try to keep as many genetics in the mix as possible, since we have birds that are not often seen, and thus most flocks come from one main source person in this country. And we see differences in the hatch groups by doing this, even though the original three breeding cocks were brothers. Even when breeding different cocks to the same hens, we can sometimes see the differences that each cock brings to his offspring. So far we have not attempted to intermingle the bloodlines, but we may do it someday to see what happens. But right now, we're doing fine with keeping mating within the same bloodline.
Some folks don't worry about trying to do any type of rotational/line breeding. I think it is Dragon Lady on here that mentioned a few years ago that she simply breeds "best to best" and doesn't pay much attention to relationships and line breeding guidelines. And she is well thought of as a breeder with some lovely birds.
Don't try to over-think things. When people first start out, they are so worried about screwing up that they get stuck on nit picky little points that really don't make that much difference (been there done that). Reality is that things are not always going to work out the way that you plan, but those instances can give you far more education about what you need to do with your birds, than trying to do everything *just so* and follow some strict, but often arbitrary, guidelines for poultry breeding.
As far as monitoring individual egg production, you can try the trap nesting route if you have time to let them out of their traps every time they get into the nest box. But trying to keep each hen isolated is not going to be fun for you or for them. When you keep just a few hens in each pen, you can get a good idea of what the laying production is like, and then if needed, you can always take a hen out of the mix if you REALLY need to have that one particular hen's production written down to every last decimal point. But I've found that really isn't necessary.
Keep things simple - you have enough work just trying to evaluate your birds to whatever standard you're breeding to and trying to keep such tight control on things is only apt to frustrate you and your birds.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

In one of the poultry association groups this spring, an experienced breeder asked the group something like "When you sell a starter trio, what is the relationship of the birds to each other?" just to get the variety of answers from the members. There was a pretty big variety of answers. Some people want the birds to be as closely related as possible, some want them to be as distantly related as possible, and some just go for "best birds I can spare." I thought it was super interesting, and it sure made me feel less stressy about making a mistake in that regard.

 

[ashlieneevel]

Here's the link to Bob Blosl's site in case you wanted to peruse it. http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id60.html

Here's what I have copied from some stuff that he had written on this issue:

Basics of Rotational Line Breeding in chickens
Using this method you can indefinitely breed a line of chickens without introducing new blood.
You need 4 "clans" minimum, for simplicity sake here I will assign each one a color: Red, Blue, White, Green. Each clan needs at least one male, and anywhere from one to ten hens depending on your needs. It is nice to have a back-up male of each clan in case of illness or other unexpected loss, but not needed.
Mark your birds with colored leg bands and when it's time to breed and hatch divide them by color for year one. Red male with Red Female, Blue with Blue and so on and so on. When the chicks hatch, find a way to mark them so you know what "clan" they came from. (nail polish works on chicks and then colored leg bands as they get older)
Year two, pick your best breeders that have the qualities you want (this is another discussion) and put the hens in their pens. Now put the Red males in the with the Blue hens, the Blue Males in with the White hens, and the White Males in with the Green Hens, Green males in with Red hens. Mark the chicks with the "clan" color of the hens.
Year three, select your breeders. Red males go with White hens, Blue males with Green Hens, White males with Red hens, Green males with Blue hens.
Again, mark the offspring with the color of the hens.
Repeat this every year, always moving the males one pen down the line, and always marking the chicks with the "clan" color of the hens.

Most people start out with birds that come from one flock - usually brothers and sisters - and then they set up their breeding pens. It isn't often that you are going to find a breeder that is keeping large number of birds to sell for breeding that are of different ages and not so close in familial relationship to each other. If they did that, they would be feeding many birds and require a LOT of space. Generally when you get birds, what is available is going to be what has hatched from their current breeding pens and would be considered brothers and sisters.
From what I've found personally, and what I've been told by others, poultry seem to tolerate more *inbreeding* than other types of animals before you start to see problems related to too much inbreeding. So worrying about trying to get multiple breeding groups from a bunch of different folks isn't necessary. And in fact, I would not recommend it unless you plan to breed each strain (bloodline) by themselves for several years, so you can get acquainted with their quirks, before you even attempt to cross the bloodlines with each other. It's better to get to know what the gene mix in each bloodline has before you start trying to mix bloodlines and become sorely disappointed that what you saw in the birds is not what came out in the offspring. We still occasionally get surprised by traits coming out in a hatch group that was not seen in their parents - it's just a crap shoot sometimes of how that DNA ladder gets put together.
We have more than one old bloodline and within our bloodlines, we breed from 3 males in order to try to keep as many genetics in the mix as possible, since we have birds that are not often seen, and thus most flocks come from one main source person in this country. And we see differences in the hatch groups by doing this, even though the original three breeding cocks were brothers. Even when breeding different cocks to the same hens, we can sometimes see the differences that each cock brings to his offspring. So far we have not attempted to intermingle the bloodlines, but we may do it someday to see what happens. But right now, we're doing fine with keeping mating within the same bloodline.
Some folks don't worry about trying to do any type of rotational/line breeding. I think it is Dragon Lady on here that mentioned a few years ago that she simply breeds "best to best" and doesn't pay much attention to relationships and line breeding guidelines. And she is well thought of as a breeder with some lovely birds.
Don't try to over-think things. When people first start out, they are so worried about screwing up that they get stuck on nit picky little points that really don't make that much difference (been there done that). Reality is that things are not always going to work out the way that you plan, but those instances can give you far more education about what you need to do with your birds, than trying to do everything *just so* and follow some strict, but often arbitrary, guidelines for poultry breeding.
As far as monitoring individual egg production, you can try the trap nesting route if you have time to let them out of their traps every time they get into the nest box. But trying to keep each hen isolated is not going to be fun for you or for them. When you keep just a few hens in each pen, you can get a good idea of what the laying production is like, and then if needed, you can always take a hen out of the mix if you REALLY need to have that one particular hen's production written down to every last decimal point. But I've found that really isn't necessary.
Keep things simple - you have enough work just trying to evaluate your birds to whatever standard you're breeding to and trying to keep such tight control on things is only apt to frustrate you and your birds.

THANK YOU THIS ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS PERFECTLY!!!! I've been on the Blosl site I have it bookmarked already

 

[ashlieneevel]

In one of the poultry association groups this spring, an experienced breeder asked the group something like "When you sell a starter trio, what is the relationship of the birds to each other?" just to get the variety of answers from the members. There was a pretty big variety of answers. Some people want the birds to be as closely related as possible, some want them to be as distantly related as possible, and some just go for "best birds I can spare." I thought it was super interesting, and it sure made me feel less stressy about making a mistake in that regard.

Thanks very much for your response it was very insightful as to just how diversified preferences can be among breeders. I'll try not to overthink things from now on. Thats a serious "quirk" of mine. I'm known to overthink, overbuild, overeat and any other "over" you could think of lol. Thank you to all of you for your guidance. its been very helpful Now i'm gonna get started on reading these long threads lol

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Option 1: Get 3 sets of trios all from the same breeder/line. One Trio becomes Pen A , the next Pen B, the next Pen C. Now if these trios were of the same line but not the same clutch I could see how this would work but if they were too closely related it would seem that this style of breeding would be redundant in that scenario, but perhaps i'm wrong.

Option 2: Get 3 sets of trios from separate independent breeders where each set embodies a quality that compliments or strengthens a quality lacking or not found in another. Now I see how this could be a good thing but I also see how this could go from terrific original breeders to muddy waters very quickly.

Maybe there is some other option or variation that I am completely missing. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case because to date,i've invested a whopping 2 days into researching this thus far.

Option 3: Start with a single trio, work slowly. (that was the advice I was given when I was getting started all of 1.5 years ago -- not the voice of experience, but the voice of recent research)

I keep reading that when you cross two unrelated lines you'll spend some time fixing the genetic surprises, so you have to decide if that's worth it. And that it would take quite a few years to reach genetic fatigue in a closely-related line.

I think some people get birds from multiple sources to get familiar with the breed, then pick their favorite to work with.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Thanks very much for your response it was very insightful as to just how diversified preferences can be among breeders. I'll try not to overthink things from now on. Thats a serious "quirk" of mine. I'm known to overthink, overbuild, overeat and any other "over" you could think of lol. Thank you to all of you for your guidance. its been very helpful Now i'm gonna get started on reading these long threads lol

Yeah ... since breeding poultry requires patience (meaning there is time to fill while I wait for the next phase in the process), I find it's best for me to channel my overthinking away from the birds once the thinking gets to the point of unraveling.