Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

Another quote from Bob - in this one, he was talking about the Columbian pattern, but I think it is a good general plan.

By Robert Blosl
If I was getting started with say Columbian Plymouth Rock Large Fowl today I would get the best birds I could locate even if they were light years away from the top birds say twenty years ago and work on a program of three year goals in breeding. I would always keep my eyes open for a sleeper strain from say a private breeder who has an old strain and never showed them or a strain from another county that is better than I presently have today such as Canada.
First Year: I get say two dozen eggs from the best breeder that I can locate and hatch and raise them up in separate pens as soon as I can tell the Cockerels from the pullets. I would pick two or three of the best cockerels and the best pullets and raise them up to egg laying age or about ten months of age. I would then take the best three pullets and put them in a small pen with my best cockerel of the year. I would hatch as many chicks as I could in say 30 days and then remove the male on the thirty day and on the 40 day and place the other male in the pen with the two pullets. Again you put all the eggs in the incubator I would toe punch one hole in the right out web of these chicks so I know they came from pen two.
I would raise all these chicks up again like the first year and pick the best five cockerel and pullets and raise them up to adult age. I would take the best cockerel l and mate him back to the two females which are hens. I would take the two best pullets and mate them back to their sire.
I would then raise the chicks again just like I did the year before and toe punch the second pen with the old hens as Pen two.
The next year I would take again the best Cockerel and mate them back to the old hens for the next season. The best pullets would go back to the old cock bird for one more final year.
Line breeding the next year. I would take the best pullets from pen one and mate them to the best cockerel from Pen two. I would then take the best cockerel from pen two and mate them two the best pullets from pen one. I would again raise all the chicks up and then toe punch the birds for pen one and pen two for this season.
Improvement in Body Type: With this system I am breeding for body type only. I am hoping I can keep the color going but we are breeding genes for Plymouth Rock body type. Gravy bowl bodies, with good elevated top lines , yellow legs, good head points five to seven head points and excellent vitality.
Breeding for color: When you get two this level in four to five years you should have a pretty good idea of how to breed for type and then you got to take your best typed birds and pick the ones with the closest color to the standard. Your best breeders for color are in your males. You take the best colored males with the best type and find the best type colored females and mate them two your best male. You raise the chicks up and then mate the best colored females back to their sire again. You may have a second male that was his brother they are lookalike brothers then take two of his nieces and mate them to their uncle the next year. This will give you two pens to choose from. Inbreed the best daughters back to the old males for say three years till you develop a Plymouth Rock that has great type and color to match it like the top Columbian Plymouth Rock Bantam strains in America today. There is a person named Mike Michael who is a master of breeding the Columbian color pattern in bantams from Michigan. You need to talk to him on the phone and send him pictures of your birds each year and get his advice on how you are doing and who to breed which bird with whom.
This is what I would do with what I have until something better would show up. This is a rough draft that I fired off tonight. I will sleep on this and post it on my web site and then dig up the articles that Mike Michael has written for our newsletter on the Columbian Color Pattern. Don’t keep a lot of birds just mate in pairs and hatch about 20 chicks per female if you can. In no time you will see improvements and you will also learn from your mistakes as you get to the second and third year level.
 
Option 3: Start with a single trio, work slowly. (that was the advice I was given when I was getting started all of 1.5 years ago -- not the voice of experience, but the voice of recent research)

I keep reading that when you cross two unrelated lines you'll spend some time fixing the genetic surprises, so you have to decide if that's worth it. And that it would take quite a few years to reach genetic fatigue in a closely-related line.

I think some people get birds from multiple sources to get familiar with the breed, then pick their favorite to work with.

I think you option three seems the most logical for someone starting out as opposed to getting in over your head way to fast. I'm assuming the process here would be daughter to father mother to son grandson to grandmother granddaughter to grandfather. My question about this though is how long is that sustainable before you create a problem within the line. I wouldn't imagine that could continue indefinitely.
 
Another quote from Bob - in this one, he was talking about the Columbian pattern, but I think it is a good general plan.

By Robert Blosl
If I was getting started with say Columbian Plymouth Rock Large Fowl today I would get the best birds I could locate even if they were light years away from the top birds say twenty years ago and work on a program of three year goals in breeding. I would always keep my eyes open for a sleeper strain from say a private breeder who has an old strain and never showed them or a strain from another county that is better than I presently have today such as Canada.
First Year: I get say two dozen eggs from the best breeder that I can locate and hatch and raise them up in separate pens as soon as I can tell the Cockerels from the pullets. I would pick two or three of the best cockerels and the best pullets and raise them up to egg laying age or about ten months of age. I would then take the best three pullets and put them in a small pen with my best cockerel of the year. I would hatch as many chicks as I could in say 30 days and then remove the male on the thirty day and on the 40 day and place the other male in the pen with the two pullets. Again you put all the eggs in the incubator I would toe punch one hole in the right out web of these chicks so I know they came from pen two.
I would raise all these chicks up again like the first year and pick the best five cockerel and pullets and raise them up to adult age. I would take the best cockerel l and mate him back to the two females which are hens. I would take the two best pullets and mate them back to their sire.
I would then raise the chicks again just like I did the year before and toe punch the second pen with the old hens as Pen two.
The next year I would take again the best Cockerel and mate them back to the old hens for the next season. The best pullets would go back to the old cock bird for one more final year.
Line breeding the next year. I would take the best pullets from pen one and mate them to the best cockerel from Pen two. I would then take the best cockerel from pen two and mate them two the best pullets from pen one. I would again raise all the chicks up and then toe punch the birds for pen one and pen two for this season.
Improvement in Body Type: With this system I am breeding for body type only. I am hoping I can keep the color going but we are breeding genes for Plymouth Rock body type. Gravy bowl bodies, with good elevated top lines , yellow legs, good head points five to seven head points and excellent vitality.
Breeding for color: When you get two this level in four to five years you should have a pretty good idea of how to breed for type and then you got to take your best typed birds and pick the ones with the closest color to the standard. Your best breeders for color are in your males. You take the best colored males with the best type and find the best type colored females and mate them two your best male. You raise the chicks up and then mate the best colored females back to their sire again. You may have a second male that was his brother they are lookalike brothers then take two of his nieces and mate them to their uncle the next year. This will give you two pens to choose from. Inbreed the best daughters back to the old males for say three years till you develop a Plymouth Rock that has great type and color to match it like the top Columbian Plymouth Rock Bantam strains in America today. There is a person named Mike Michael who is a master of breeding the Columbian color pattern in bantams from Michigan. You need to talk to him on the phone and send him pictures of your birds each year and get his advice on how you are doing and who to breed which bird with whom.
This is what I would do with what I have until something better would show up. This is a rough draft that I fired off tonight. I will sleep on this and post it on my web site and then dig up the articles that Mike Michael has written for our newsletter on the Columbian Color Pattern. Don’t keep a lot of birds just mate in pairs and hatch about 20 chicks per female if you can. In no time you will see improvements and you will also learn from your mistakes as you get to the second and third year level.

This was really helpful thank you very much.
 
Quote:
You can get genetic surprises with any line that needs a lot of work. I just had a bunch of wry-tailed chicks show up this year in a line I've been working with for three years. Fortunately I have wing-tagged all the birds so I know exactly which pairing produced the wry tails. And I have until late November to figure out what to do about it. That's when I start setting up my breeders for the next hatching season.

I am lucky - my birds have a lot of variability in their eggs and so far I have been able to set up pens with hens whose eggs I can identify based on their appearance. It took some concentrated watching and temporary hen isolation, but after I figured out whose eggs were whose I could keep several hens with each cock and still be reasonably certain which hen laid the egg. I mark the eggs with the parents' wing tag numbers and the date I collected the egg. When hatching time arrives I separate the eggs in the hatcher, so each pairing is kept separate. I toe punch the chicks when I move them out of the hatcher, and wing-tag them a few days later when I move them from the temporary brooder inside the house to the primary brooder outside.

This process may not work as well for me next year, because the other line I recently acquired lays eggs that are nearly identical to each other. I need a backup plan for egg id. I'm not around consistently enough to trap nest.

If you start with closely related birds and your breed needs a lot of work, plan on hatching a lot of chicks the first few years. One of the reasons inbreeding is less of a problem with chickens is that you CAN hatch a lot of chicks from a pair of birds in a season. Even if there are recessive traits that show up and cause problems, you still have a chance of getting a reasonable number of problem-free birds if you hatch a lot of chicks. You will have to cull like crazy. But you can work through it. The danger is in not hatching a lot of chicks and then getting surprised a generation or two later, and not having enough birds to work around or through the issue. That is why it is good to know other breeders with birds originating from the same line. You can go to them for new birds if you do get stuck and not have as big a risk of introducing more unexpected traits.

Just remember, they are chickens. Have fun with them. You can always eat your mistakes.
big_smile.png
 
Another quote from Bob - in this one, he was talking about the Columbian pattern, but I think it is a good general plan.

By Robert Blosl
If I was getting started with say Columbian Plymouth Rock Large Fowl today I would get the best birds I could locate even if they were light years away from the top birds say twenty years ago and work on a program of three year goals in breeding. I would always keep my eyes open for a sleeper strain from say a private breeder who has an old strain and never showed them or a strain from another county that is better than I presently have today such as Canada.
First Year: I get say two dozen eggs from the best breeder that I can locate and hatch and raise them up in separate pens as soon as I can tell the Cockerels from the pullets. I would pick two or three of the best cockerels and the best pullets and raise them up to egg laying age or about ten months of age. I would then take the best three pullets and put them in a small pen with my best cockerel of the year. I would hatch as many chicks as I could in say 30 days and then remove the male on the thirty day and on the 40 day and place the other male in the pen with the two pullets. Again you put all the eggs in the incubator I would toe punch one hole in the right out web of these chicks so I know they came from pen two.
I would raise all these chicks up again like the first year and pick the best five cockerel and pullets and raise them up to adult age. I would take the best cockerel l and mate him back to the two females which are hens. I would take the two best pullets and mate them back to their sire.
I would then raise the chicks again just like I did the year before and toe punch the second pen with the old hens as Pen two.
The next year I would take again the best Cockerel and mate them back to the old hens for the next season. The best pullets would go back to the old cock bird for one more final year.
Line breeding the next year. I would take the best pullets from pen one and mate them to the best cockerel from Pen two. I would then take the best cockerel from pen two and mate them two the best pullets from pen one. I would again raise all the chicks up and then toe punch the birds for pen one and pen two for this season.
Improvement in Body Type: With this system I am breeding for body type only. I am hoping I can keep the color going but we are breeding genes for Plymouth Rock body type. Gravy bowl bodies, with good elevated top lines , yellow legs, good head points five to seven head points and excellent vitality.
Breeding for color: When you get two this level in four to five years you should have a pretty good idea of how to breed for type and then you got to take your best typed birds and pick the ones with the closest color to the standard. Your best breeders for color are in your males. You take the best colored males with the best type and find the best type colored females and mate them two your best male. You raise the chicks up and then mate the best colored females back to their sire again. You may have a second male that was his brother they are lookalike brothers then take two of his nieces and mate them to their uncle the next year. This will give you two pens to choose from. Inbreed the best daughters back to the old males for say three years till you develop a Plymouth Rock that has great type and color to match it like the top Columbian Plymouth Rock Bantam strains in America today. There is a person named Mike Michael who is a master of breeding the Columbian color pattern in bantams from Michigan. You need to talk to him on the phone and send him pictures of your birds each year and get his advice on how you are doing and who to breed which bird with whom.
This is what I would do with what I have until something better would show up. This is a rough draft that I fired off tonight. I will sleep on this and post it on my web site and then dig up the articles that Mike Michael has written for our newsletter on the Columbian Color Pattern. Don’t keep a lot of birds just mate in pairs and hatch about 20 chicks per female if you can. In no time you will see improvements and you will also learn from your mistakes as you get to the second and third year level.
frustrated growl. Yeah, that would help if Columbian Plymouth Rock Large Fowl were based on the eWh allele, But they are eb ( Brown ) instead, sigh.
No help for the plumage with Light Sussex folk.
Oh well,
karen
 
Why not? He's talking about type, initally. As for color, you could enter your own colors for what he proposes.
Yeah, I know. I am just frustrated because last month I found out in June I missed out on a vey rare piece of Sussex lit I have been chasing for years.
Oh well, Onward and upward........
Karen
 
Hey Ashlie!
Here is one of my fav little classic books. There is a very famous Buff Leghorn breeder here in the USA called Danne Honour. His Uncle's Uncle was a veteran poultryman named Wid Card. Now Wid was a very talented poultry man. He created the White Laced Red Cornish fowl. He also had a gift for making
genetics lesson simple for learners. He could be found at poultry shows with a circle of learners explaining poultry breeding I simple terms. Then he wrote this wonderful little book. It's about Breeding Laws. Not opinions or theories. If you do this, then that will happen. He also explains a time-tested classic breeding plan which involves linebreeding and need only 2birds to get started. there is also a neat chart of it to study. It involves creating two families like the other poster said. I go back and reread it every once and a while. Lots to think about in it.
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. ...
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Best Regards,
Karen
P.S. These last 2 titles can also be read online at Hathi Trust Digital Library.

The gospel of true buff color on domestic fowls.
By: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
Published: (1900) ( Danne Honour wrote online this was the very best article he had every read on the definition of the color "Buff".
It is included in his over 1,000 page treatise he has gathered of articles on the color Buff. http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/Buff-Coloration.pdf )
 
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Hey Ashlie!
Here is one of my fav little classic books. There is a very famous Buff Leghorn breeder here in the USA called Danne Honour. His Uncle's Uncle was a veteran poultryman named Wid Card. Now Wid was a very talented poultry man. He created the White Laced Red Cornish fowl. He also had a gift for making
genetics lesson simple for learners. He could be found at poultry shows with a circle of learners explaining poultry breeding I simple terms. Then he wrote this wonderful little book. It's about Breeding Laws. Not opinions or theories. If you do this, then that will happen. He also explains a time-tested classic breeding plan which involves linebreeding and need only 2birds to get started. there is also a neat chart of it to study. It involves creating two families like the other poster said. I go back and reread it every once and a while. Lots to think about in it.
Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls. ...
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=chi.087299559;view=1up;seq=5
Best Regards,
Karen
P.S. These last 2 titles can also be read online at Hathi Trust Digital Library.

The gospel of true buff color on domestic fowls.
By: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
Published: (1900) ( Danne Honour wrote online this was the very best article he had every read on the definition of the color "Buff".
It is included in his over 1,000 page treatise he has gathered of articles on the color Buff. http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/Buff-Coloration.pdf )

Awesome! Thanks so much Karen. i got all kinds of reading to do!
 

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