Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

Awesome! Thanks so much Karen. i got all kinds of reading to do!
More than welcome Ashlie,
I love this little book because there is no theory in it. It's all simple "If you do this, then that will result". Plus, Card keeps as much science out of it as possible. It's like sitting down and listening in on a chat between experts. Plus the chart makes everything so simple. I'm a very visual person and I need that to make sense of the back and forth matings between birds in a linebreeding project. I also love the simple way he explains how one can start with only 2 birds and still prevent inbreeding problems.
The color breeding sections are priceless. Today we hear so much genetics quoted in color breeding. Like , The eb allele allows dark stippling to bleed thru on a silver Columbian when the hues of the undercolor aren't correctly balanced. Say what? Now I need to know the names and functions of three color factors to understand the sentence. Card just says things like. ( paraphrase) When a white feather appears in a dark bird it is evidence the dark color has reached the end of it's strength and needs to be reenergized. How simple is that? VBG.
It's the difference between the "art of breeding" and "the science of breeding". A fascinating study. This little book was written before the naming of most of the color genes and alleles we know today. Back then the poultry breeders bred based on cause and effect. There was a lot of art involved. There still is today. By trial and error, the early breeders worked out the visual notations of the rising and waning of "strengths" in color breeding. They called it then ( and now) "breeding to feather". When the strengths of the colors in a particular color pattern were correct, the color manifested correctly. ( as in the Speckled Sussex). When a color ( or part of a color pattern) was too weak or too strong, then adjustments were made to bring the proportions back in line by complementary breedings. ( Just like adjusting the tea and water in your drink until it "tastes" just right. ) Too light? Breed that bird to a darker bird. Too many speckles on that bird? Breed it to a plainer brown bird without a lot of speckles.
Nowadays we deal with balancing gene names instead. Frankly, Tho is it helpful to the initiated, I think it makes it harder for the new learner to get a grasp on color breeding.
There's a wonderful book out there I think you will really enjoy. Not just because it discusses color breeding in easy-to-understand terms...but because the back 1/2 of the book is a stunning color atlas of poultry colors. Each picture captioned by the genetic formula for that color ( yeah!). http://www.chickencolours.com " The Genetics Of Chicken Colours-The Basics". I just love my copy. It really brings to life the colors people discuss on BYC. People will be discussing some color on BYC and I can run to my book and open the page to see what they are talking about.
The author has also written another book ( The Genetics Of Chicken Extremities") of the same type and style dealing with breeding to body type ( called in poultry circles "breeding to type"). The experts leave the "body" out), smile. That's for later on, not now, smile.
l love reading the old books because comparing their "art of breeding" to today's "science of breeding", really helps me better understand the whole picture. Here's a good example:
In the Light Sussex, we have a variety in the breed which is a silver white bird with black in the neck and tail feathers plus black on portions of the underneath of the wing feathers. But when I read the old lit on the Light Sussex, I see lots of references to black dots appearing in the white feathers and how do we correct this? Now the genetic formula for Light Sussex today is eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co. That is 2 copies of the Wheaten allele, 2 copies of the Silver gene and 2 copies of the Columbian gene. Technically these black dots on the white aren't possible because :
1. The Wheaten allele ( an allele is the basic canvas on which all the color factors are "painted") keeps the Light Sussex body Silver in spite of the black genes the Columbian gene is shoving around the bird's body. Now the eb ( brown ) allele will allow those black dots if the color isn't balanced correctly). We see this in a breed variety called the Light Brahma. ( The "Light" coloring on any allele base is called "Silver Columbian").
2. The Silver gene is often called the "stay white" gene. On an eWh based bird, 2 copies of it keep the white parts of the bird, snow white.
3. The Columbian gene is a pretty gene. It makes pretty birds by shoving colors ( in this case, Black) to the bird's body extremities. Like the tail , neck, end of the wings, etc. Leaving the rest of the birds body some other color ( in this case, White").
Back to the Light Sussex story. So... if the genetic formula doesn't allow body dotting, why were these early breeders plagued by it? Hum... to answer that question, we need to look at the three breeds which were the foundation for the Light Sussex. ( their names aren't important) . Three breeds which were bred together and out of the mix was refined the Light Sussex. If we look at these breeds under today's genetic microscope, we find out 2 of them were eWh based and one was eb based. Aha@! There's the culprit! Even tho those early breeders didn't have a name for it! The eb ( Brown) allele. When this allele is used as a base for a bird colored like the Light Sussex, suddenly we have to do color balancing to get that pure white body. If we don't get it correct, black dots show up in the white parts. In the eWh based Light Sussex, the feathers are white to the skin.
In the eb Based Light Sussex colored birds, the underfluff ( what many call "down") is colored. What? Yes, it has a "hue" to it, kinda a pale slate or grey color. Now this hue in the underfluff affects if the top feathers will be solid white or not. If the hue is too dark, black dots appear in the top feathers. So there we see the problem.
When the early lit on the Light Sussex breed was being written, the breeders were still winnowing out the eb allele from their variety's foundation. Birds were still cropping up which had one copy of the eWh allele and one copy of the eb allele So their genetic formula looked like this: eWh/eb S/S Co/Co. And they still needed to color balance the underfluff in order to prevent black dotting from showing up in the white areas.
After the 1930's we no longer see references to the "black dots in white body feathers" problem. We see references to breeders who have discovered the "stay white" gene and moved past the "black dots" problem. This is when the Light Sussex as a whole had winnowed out to 2 copies of the eWh allele in their formula and the black dots no longer appeared. eWh/eWh S/S Co/Co , the lovely Light Sussex as we know it today ( see my avatar). Moral of the story? When we read the classic old lit, do so with the modern genetic basis of your breed and variety in mind. That way you will understand if you see discrepancies between then and now.

Best,
Karen
 
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I'll resist the urge to do massive amounts of quoting here ... but @3riverschick that's very cool info. I'm wondering how much the work with Light Sussex would translate to working on the Delaware color pattern. I've got "color problems" in my flock, which is expected as the line is very young. But I have already figured out that if I don't pay attention to color while "building the barn," then they just get worse.

This year it's all about yellow legs, I think. But for sure the "black dots in white body feathers" issue is real.
 
I'll resist the urge to do massive amounts of quoting here ... but @3riverschick that's very cool info. I'm wondering how much the work with Light Sussex would translate to working on the Delaware color pattern. I've got "color problems" in my flock, which is expected as the line is very young. But I have already figured out that if I don't pay attention to color while "building the barn," then they just get worse.

This year it's all about yellow legs, I think. But for sure the "black dots in white body feathers" issue is real.
Isn't the Delaware just the Light Sussex color with the barring gene added? Are you seeing the black dots on Delaware white bodies??
Is the bottom of the hackle spreading out across the top of the back? Aren't yellow kegs dominant over white? Yes? No?
I understand what you mean about watching the color. I am working on bodies and am now seeing an issue with the bottom of the hackle sliding down into the birds "withers". Taking the form of gray spots on the feathers. I know this can happen when there is not proper color balancing of the black in the hackles ( this is not the same, Ashlie, as the color balancing needed in the underfluff of the eb based "Light" breeds.) Now I know one can have a very dark complete "superhackle" in Light Sussex and still not have the hackle slide down onto the shoulders. Perhaps I have too little black in my hackles. I am still trying to sort this out. I am thinking I need to go find a breeder in the U.K to help me.
Best,
Karen
 
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Yes. Delaware is the Columbia Pattern with barring as the color points, and the females should have white-frosted solid black primary tail feathers.

I've seen lots of capes with barring (black spots).

I've seen black flecks or barring all down the back.

I've seen columbian hackle feathers (meaning vertical streaks of black instead of black bars).

I've seen solid tail feathers in males.

I've seen barred saddle feathers on males.

I've seen barred tail feathers on females.

I've seen reddish brown feathers throughout the bird, on females.

I've seen buff barring in the bodies after the first adult molt, on females.

I've seen gray under fluff.

I've seen black or gray freckles where it should be silvery white.

And legs? Various shades of yellow, including orange, straw, dusky, and willow, all of which I'm trying to understand. Male legs tend to be more uniformly orange. Females with better leg color have worse feather color.

It's a new line, only a few generations from recreating the breed starting from scratch with good foundation birds, and only a few of us are working it at the moment.
 
Yes. Delaware is the Columbia Pattern with barring as the color points, and the females should have white-frosted solid black primary tail feathers.

I've seen lots of capes with barring (black spots).

I've seen black flecks or barring all down the back.

I've seen columbian hackle feathers (meaning vertical streaks of black instead of black bars).

I've seen solid tail feathers in males.

I've seen barred saddle feathers on males.

I've seen barred tail feathers on females.

I've seen reddish brown feathers throughout the bird, on females.

I've seen buff barring in the bodies after the first adult molt, on females.

I've seen gray under fluff.

I've seen black or gray freckles where it should be silvery white.

And legs? Various shades of yellow, including orange, straw, dusky, and willow, all of which I'm trying to understand. Male legs tend to be more uniformly orange. Females with better leg color have worse feather color.

It's a new line, only a few generations from recreating the breed starting from scratch with good foundation birds, and only a few of us are working it at the moment.

Is that all ? No problem . Piece of cake
gig.gif

I think we may need to work on one or two things at a time .
Also we may need to run two lines - one for male pattern and one for female.
I think type is there already - Just ask Mr Fatty
 
Is that all ? No problem . Piece of cake :gig
I think we may need to work on one or two things at a time .
Also we may need to run two lines - one for male pattern and one for female. 
I think type is there already - Just ask Mr Fatty


Mr Fatty looks like a fancy-arsed Wyandotte. And some of his pullets are sickle hawked! But zero Columbiann streaked hackles in his group. So a qualified "yay!"

I'm percolating a design for some collapsible evaluation cages so I can get the chicks confined at eye level and sorted. This is essential to my sanity. And some of the males are getting big.

My breeding partner and I are going to prioritize leg color as best we can this season. She walked me through her observations about that to date, now I agree with her, we need to nail that down and in general type is doing okay. In my opinion, we need to also not lose ground on wings (carriage & folding).

I hit a wall researching a DIY version of those cool folding poultry show cages, then got inspired to search for DIY rabbit cages. I didn't find folding ones, but I learned there is a thing called "cage wire" that seems easier to look through than hardware cloth, and see it's available at TSC. I figure that, some J-clips, a couple stiff rods that I can bend (or draft some man hands to bend for me), and a dremmel will be in my shopping cart soon. Maybe even with having to buy the dremmel I can build them in bulk for better than I could buy them. Maybe.

I love projects like that.
 
Do they need to be portable ? Foldable ?
seems you could go with a five compartment with chicken wire and wood on the cheap.
Just a thought.

If they're foldable, I can keep them handy. I have several wood-frame cages that aren't handy enough for this because they're too big to store in the poultry area. And I do want them to be relatively sturdy. I'd like them to stand up on their own, and give me the absolute best possible sight lines. With my vision issues, complicated patterns of lines give me all kinds of problems (think how epilepsy can be triggered by flashing lights), so I want to minimize the visual clutter.

Cage wire is cool in that the openings are rectangular, which eliminates some of the lines. And it seems far sturdier than chicken wire. The price seems a bit better than hardware cloth, though I'd have to really pencil that out to be sure.

If I can't get a Dremel, I was thinking thin wood strapping or duct tape wrapping at least around the door openings. Some of us here have older skin, which tends to be EXTREMELY fragile. If you know what I mean.
 
If they're foldable, I can keep them handy. I have several wood-frame cages that aren't handy enough for this because they're too big to store in the poultry area. And I do want them to be relatively sturdy. I'd like them to stand up on their own, and give me the absolute best possible sight lines. With my vision issues, complicated patterns of lines give me all kinds of problems (think how epilepsy can be triggered by flashing lights), so I want to minimize the visual clutter.

Cage wire is cool in that the openings are rectangular, which eliminates some of the lines. And it seems far sturdier than chicken wire. The price seems a bit better than hardware cloth, though I'd have to really pencil that out to be sure.

If I can't get a Dremel, I was thinking thin wood strapping or duct tape wrapping at least around the door openings. Some of us here have older skin, which tends to be EXTREMELY fragile. If you know what I mean.

It sounds like you want to purchase some wire, and make your own. You can purchase pre made plastic guards for the openings. It does not cost much to do each opening. I pick up cheap dog crates from the thrift stores. Wire hoops are easy to make and disassemble.
 
It sounds like you want to purchase some wire, and make your own. You can purchase pre made plastic guards for the openings. It does not cost much to do each opening. I pick up cheap dog crates from the thrift stores. Wire hoops are easy to make and disassemble.

Thats George, always thinking .
Hoop viewing cages would be the way to go . That makes it way easier.
 

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