Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[CanadianBuckeye]

I wonder how much of this is related to whether the birds were expected to scrounge for most of their their own food except a little corn scattered occasionally (vs. regular feed always available like most receive today). As you said, maybe nutritional factors?

It is an interesting question. After all, whenever I am tempted to think of my self as relatively self sufficient (grow almost all of my food, including eggs and meat), I just remind myself about the feed bill - I do not produce my feed on my property (yet).

- Ant Farm

I've been sporadically following the Kuroiler project in Uganda, where they have introduced Indian Kuroiler chickens. Apparently the local fowl produce very few eggs and little meat compared to the Kuroiler, Both are expected to scavenge, but the Kuroiler still outperforms. The Kuroilers are vaccinated, and the local fowl are not; I don't know if this entirely explains the difference in their productivity. It's an interesting read: http://phys.org/news/2015-02-chicken-winged-africa.html I'd say that a chicken that can lay 150 eggs a year, and produce a decent meaty carcass entirely by free ranging is a very productive bird indeed. I wonder how those Kuroilers would do with regular feed and care. They would probably be impressive.

 

[bnjrob]

I think it's a combination of all those things, although I do think that at one time they were considered good. When I read the literature from the early 1900's it seems that many farm hens were producing less than 100 eggs per year- perhaps because of nutritional factors, or perhaps the breed- but a hen that laid 150 eggs back then was probably considered an excellent layer. Our modern expectations ( the 300 per year egg layer and 8 week supersize breasted meat bird) are at odds with a true dual purpose fowl too, I think. My expectations are for a 200 egg per year layer from the hen, and a cockerel from that same breed that provides a decent meal in less than 20 weeks. I would be very satisfied with that. I have a dark cornish hen that lays huge eggs for a Cornish (65 gram range), and probably will end up laying at least 150 eggs this cycle- pretty good for a meat bird , but she certainly would not win any shows.

Then it begs the question of what was the cause of the low egg production at that time? With my Javas, they go broody so darn often that I have had problems getting as many eggs for hatching as I wanted. Back then, having a broody hen was a good thing since most folks didn't have incubators. Now days too, if you don't want to have to incubate, then you need broodies. So you're trying to find the balance between egg production and broody hens.

 

[bnjrob]

I wonder how much of this is related to whether the birds were expected to scrounge for most of their their own food except a little corn scattered occasionally (vs. regular feed always available like most receive today). As you said, maybe nutritional factors?

It is an interesting question. After all, whenever I am tempted to think of my self as relatively self sufficient (grow almost all of my food, including eggs and meat), I just remind myself about the feed bill - I do not produce my feed on my property (yet).

- Ant Farm

Another strong possibility for lower production than today's numbers.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Then it begs the question of what was the cause of the low egg production at that time? With my Javas, they go broody so darn often that I have had problems getting as many eggs for hatching as I wanted. Back then, having a broody hen was a good thing since most folks didn't have incubators. Now days too, if you don't want to have to incubate, then you need broodies. So you're trying to find the balance between egg production and broody hens.

Very true, you want a goldilocks broody breed- not too often,not too infrequent. Do your Javas go broody in their pullet year, or after they are older? I noticed with the "production" strains of heritage breeds that I used to have, the Barred rocks would reliably go broody in their second year but the Rhode Island Reds rarely went broody.

 

[gjensen]

The difference between 100 eggs then and 180 eggs now is genetic and it is management. Out birds are fed better now than at any other point in history. Nutrition does not explain away 80 eggs however.

It was not long ago, our fowl was rather crude, and unimproved. Still today, many are. We are shifting back to where we come from, even with our nutritional advancements. Much of the fowl that we work with today are rather crude and unimproved.

It is not a question why our birds were not productive. They were unproductive fowl, and were replaced by more productive fowl. In many cases, there are good reasons why people quit raising certain breeds. They were replaced by more productive birds. That is pretty simple to process.

Broodiness is a neutral characteristic. Excessive broodiness is a negative characteristic. It is a productive trait up until they have set enough to replace themselves. At a point, it is waste. That is in production fowl.

Good management enables a strain to reach it's genetic potential.

 

[bnjrob]

Very true, you want a goldilocks broody breed- not too often,not too infrequent. Do your Javas go broody in their pullet year, or after they are older? I noticed with the "production" strains of heritage breeds that I used to have, the Barred rocks would reliably go broody in their second year but the Rhode Island Reds rarely went broody.

Some of my pullets go broody but fortunately not all, so I've got a mix. It's gotten a little better since I have gotten farther away from the original hens that were persistently broody even when put into a broody breaker cage. They were so bad that they killed themselves with dehydration during an unusually hot summer - with water sitting right next to them. Just refused to give up that broodiness in them.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

The difference between 100 eggs then and 180 eggs now is genetic and it is management. Out birds are fed better now than at any other point in history. Nutrition does not explain away 80 eggs however.

It was not long ago, our fowl was rather crude, and unimproved. Still today, many are. We are shifting back to where we come from, even with our nutritional advancements. Much of the fowl that we work with today are rather crude and unimproved.

It is not a question why our birds were not productive. They were unproductive fowl, and were replaced by more productive fowl. In many cases, there are good reasons why people quit raising certain breeds. They were replaced by more productive birds. That is pretty simple to process.

Broodiness is a neutral characteristic. Excessive broodiness is a negative characteristic. It is a productive trait up until they have set enough to replace themselves. At a point, it is waste. That is in production fowl.

Good management enables a strain to reach it's genetic potential.

I'm hoping that you could expand on that- do you mean that certain breeds have "run out" so to speak, they were better in the past? If so, why do you think that is? Inbreeding?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

The question of productivity comes up a lot with the Delawares. People are often disappointed when Delawares don't perform as expected (Industrial-quality meat bird that also lays giant eggs all winter), so I'm often wondering how we can work on that problem from two directions: 1) make sure our expectations are realistic; 2) improve the breed. I think we've got a lot of work to do on both ends.

When I've asked a few people who currently promote Delawares as the best choice for both pastured meat and pastured eggs why they have chosen Delawares to promote, they go back to the original reputation for the breed. When I ask them where can I get Delawares that perform to historical standards I even been told that we should expect hatchery Delawares to perform better on pasture today than their "industrial" counterparts in the 40's and 50's because our management practices are better today. I just scratch my head. The studies I've read that attempt to explain the increase of productivity of indoor industry hybrid birds seem to come up with "breeding" as the answer to most of it. And I don't know if anyone has been breeding Delawares for improved performance in the decades since they dropped out of the industry. If anyone does, please tell me.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I'm hoping that you could expand on that- do you mean that certain breeds have "run out" so to speak, they were better in the past? If so, why do you think that is? Inbreeding?

I know that for Delawares, what's left of the breed wasn't maintained for conformity to the Standard, nor was it maintained for production performance. The hatchery Delawares do seem to lay early and well like other hatchery breeds do, maybe even producing more eggs in their pullet year than expected -- I'm not sure about "good winter laying" after that. But as meat birds, they disappoint and they don't look much like Delawares are supposed to except sometimes with feather color.

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

I was very keen on Delawares for the reasons you mentioned, I did all the reading and they sounded perfect for my needs. I never did get any though, I decided that pea combs would be best for my situation, but it seems that in Ontario Delawares are in demand.