Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Yeah, I get what you mean about the breeding then going back t the books. I was surprised how differently the Sussex lit re-read after a couple of years breeding them. I guess I may be overthinking this a bit. . I just like to get the whole picture, smile. With you advices about stance and angle of back chnaging ,it will be real interesting to watch my Chanties when they come in Aug.
Something which occurred to me later this afternoon. Could the angle of the back have to do with the purpose of the breed?
Like a hallmark of the purpose o the breed?:
1. Meat breed: level backs in male and female( Dorking)
2. Dual Purpose: some angle to back in male, level back in female ( Sussex and Chantecler)
3. Egg breed: angle in backs of male and female. ( Leghorn)
Whaddayathink ?
Best,
Karen

 

[CanadianBuckeye]

Yeah, I get what you mean about the breeding then going back t the books. I was surprised how differently the Sussex lit re-read after a couple of years breeding them. I guess I may be overthinking this a bit. . I just like to get the whole picture, smile. With you advices about stance and angle of back chnaging ,it will be real interesting to watch my Chanties when they come in Aug.
Something which occurred to me later this afternoon. Could the angle of the back have to do with the purpose of the breed?
Like a hallmark of the purpose o the breed?:
1. Meat breed: level backs in male and female( Dorking)
2. Dual Purpose: some angle to back in male, level back in female ( Sussex and Chantecler)
3. Egg breed: angle in backs of male and female. ( Leghorn)
Whaddayathink ?
Best,
Karen

In the 1989 SOP, the description for the Cornish back states: Medium in length, top line sloping downward in a slightly convex line from base of neck to tail. For the Dorking, it says: Back,long, broad its entire length, straight, declining to tail (which to me sounds like slopes downwards too?)
I understand that a meat type breed would have a very different body structure than an egg breed, but I don't know how the back slope would affect production at all as long as the capacity is there. Isn't slope just a characteristic of the breed, rather than a production quality?

 

[MagicChicken]

In my opinion the back line is important because it is a significant part of the overall appearance of the breed. I don't think it is particularly important to production values unless you've got an extreme.

Evaluating the back line can be tricky. I watch each bird carefully as it moves around the yard. If it only goes into a proper-looking back line once in a while it is not the correct back line. If the back line looks right more often than it does not - especially when the bird is relaxed but alert - then I figure it is okay.

Back line is an issue in my Javas. Cocks are supposed to have downward-sloping backs that flow into a sweeping curve at the base of the tail. Most of my cocks have back lines that break in the middle and slope upward toward the tail. Java hens are supposed to have a level back. Most of my hens have backs that break in the middle and slope upward, or just slope upward with no break.

One judge pointed out that the upward-breaking back line makes my Javas look like Australorps with the wrong sole color. And he was right. Back line is why I have kept one of my original Urch-line cocks, despite his other faults. I keep going back to that bird with different hens, hoping for some sort of miracle blend of good back line and improved other traits. Nope. It hasn't happened yet. In the meantime I am eating well.

 

[3riverschick]

well it seems both CanadianBuckeye and MagicChicken are both right. I also asked over on the genetics forum. Three BYC Educators weighed in and basically said the same as ya'll. That the angle of back was a hallmark of the breed in defining its phenotype. They said it is part of the silhouette of the breed, . One Educator urged me not to over think this. I do that a lot, None mentioned angle of back indicative of a production virtue. So I guess there we have it.
Thank ya'll for weighing in. I sure appreciate it.
Happy New Year,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
A great little article with further info on why sprouted seeds ( esp. oats) are good for laying hens.
Now I just need to figure out how to make a vapor-bath sprouter.
Note this was published just as Prohibition started.

American poultry advocate. v.28 1919/20.
November, 1920 , Page 607
AMERICAN POULTRY ADVOCATE
SPROUTED OATS AND EGGS
Germinating or sprouting grain pro-
duces a substance called diastase, which
has the power to change starch into
sugar. This function of diastase formed
the basis of the once extensive, but now
extinct, brewery and distillery industries
in that by the process of sprouting, the
starch was changed into sugar which
in turn was changed into alcohol. This
useful substance is now employed in
the large yeast factories to prepare the
food on which to grow the myriads of
yeast bacteria. Diastase also forms an
important function in the breakfast food
industries or wherever or whenever it
is necessary or desirable to change the
starchy substance of cereals into sugar.
In our animal physiology or house-
keeping economy we have little use for
starch, and less now since the stiff collar
and shirt front have gone out of style.
Starch keeps better than sugar. That is
the reason the vegetable kingdom stores
its food in the form of starch for its
future use rather than sugar, which is
easily dissolved by moisture or wasted
The above picture was sent us by Mr. W. H.
Monroe of Colfax, Iowa. He states that it Is an
unretouched photograph of the sprouts from one
bushel of oats except that all the sprouts do not
show. They were sprouted In one of the Close-
To-Natnre vapor-bath sprouters. The basket of
eggs was put in the picture to emphasize the rela-
tion of sprouted oats to egg production.
away by the changes of temperature.
But neither the vegetable nor the animal
kingdom uses starch as food except as it
is changed or to be changed into sugar
or fat. Hence when a kernel of wheat
or oats begins to grow, when the little
germs begin to show life under the in-
fluence of warmth, air, and moisture, its
first act is to secrete the substance called
diastase which acts on the starch stored
in the kernel and changes it into soluble
food in the form of grape sugar, on
which the infant plant Is to live and
grow until it becomes large and strong
enough to forage for its food in the soil.
With this understanding of diastase, w-e
are now able to pass on to the subject
of sprouted oats and eggs.
A hen's ability to lay a great number
of eggs depends on her capacity to di-
gest large quantities of food. The hen
that eats little lays less. It takes food
and lots of it to make eggs. During the
fall, winter and spring, the bulk of the
hen's food must necessarily be the cereal
grains, which means that it is in the
form of starch. Corn, wheat, rye, oats,
barley, kaffir, buckwheat, cane, millet,
etc., all this is largely starch. To lay
eggs during eight months of the twelve,
she must digest much of this form of
food. The natural digestants secreted by
the hen's digestive tract are capable to
taking care of a limited amount of
starch. But in obedience to the law of
nature transmitted down through the
generations from the jungle fowl, the
amount is only that which is necessary
to maintain her body, for the hen nat-
urally does not lay except during the
natural incubation or reproduction
season common to all birds. But the
common hen has been under domestica-
tion so long that she will lay at all
seasons if given proper care and food.
To get unusual yields of eggs out of
season it is necessary to digest an un-
usual amount of starchy foods. This
we find diastase will help do. It will
serve the poultryman equally well as it
once did the brewer and distiller. Germi-
nating grain, sprouted oats if you please,
is nothing more or less than malt be-
fore it has been dried. It contains the
desired diastase in such quantities that
it not only digests the starch into sugar
in the sprouting grains, but there is a
surplus as we have found which also
helps digest the dry corn, wheat and
other cereals fed the hens. By feeding
the sprouted oats the hen gets not only
the predigested elements in the oat
sprouts, but by means of the surplus
diastase contained in the same, she is
enabled to digest a greater quantity of
dry foods, which enables her to produce
a greater number of eggs.
A further scientific fact as well as a
highly important one, is that when a
hen is fed sprouted oats, she not only
gets the various predigested elements
which have been prepared for the food
of the little oat plant, but she gets these
elements in their nascent state, or state
of chemical transformation, which makes
them easily and quickly assimilated.
There is a caution, however, which
should be entered before this brief arti-
cle is closed. All sprouted oats are not
alike, all do not contain the same
amount of diastase. To get the maxi-
mum amount of diastase, the grain must
be quickly and completely sprouted.
The distilleries did it perfectly under a
rather high heat and in steam saturated
compartments. This forcing process
produces the large surplus of diastase
which is desired. Oats sprouted slowly
in the open air or out in the field con-
tain little excess diastase. The vapor-
bath grain sprouter not only takes the
place of the steam saturated cabinets of
the distillery in producing large quanti-
ties of diastase, but the oat sprouts
themselves are much more edible and
efficient than when grown in the open
air.
In this brief article in which has been
set forth a fact long and well known
among scientists, the writer hopes that
he has succeeded in getting poultry keep-
ers to see something more in sprouted
oats then simply a green feed.
---------------------
It is a bad plan to use condiments
and drugs to force egg production.
Some feed pepper liberally. A little
pepper may be beneficial in aiding di-
gestion, but much is detrimental. It
adds to the expense of keeping the
fowls and does not add one egg to their
production.
-------------------

 

[3riverschick]

"To get the maxi-mum amount of diastase, the
grain must be quickly and completely sprouted.
The distilleries did it perfectly under a
rather high heat and in steam saturated
compartments. This forcing process
produces the large surplus of diastase
which is desired. Oats sprouted slowly
in the open air or out in the field con-
tain little excess diastase. The vapor-
bath grain sprouter not only takes the
place of the steam saturated cabinets of
the distillery in producing large quanti-
ties of diastase, but the oat sprouts
themselves are much more edible and
efficient than when grown in the open
air."
-----
Ok well "Close-To Nature" is not making vapor baths any more that I know of. What could we use instead to do this? A hot air , warm mist himudfier? Hum. Any beer brewers out there who know if we could use part of a Home brewing system vapor bath to sprout these oats? I have always sprouted Plotspike Forage Oats. A great product. But I want to learn how to sprout them in a vapor bath if we can figure out how. Who's up for some detective work??What temp and for how long. The other ads I found for Close-To Nature said they sprouted the oats in 20 to 30 hours and grew sprouts 1-2 inches a day. I know that on the 4th day a nutritional change takes place in the oat sprout which changes it from Grain feed to Green feed. Grain feed is just a nutritional supplement fed as part of the daily ration. Green feed is fed in addition to the daily ration at a rate of one cubic inch per bird. Green feed helps the cocks produce more robust sperm and helps bring the hens into lay.
Green feed is also a catch-all term for veggies fed to poultry, esp. I the winter. I do not know which meaning they are using in this ad.
Best,
Karen
P.S.I found nice warm air moist air vaporizers on eBay for not much money , circa 20 dollars USA. Question is, are they hot enough and how does one rig one to have warm moist heat a growing bed? Hum. I have several of those mini greenhouses I got on sale. I suppose I could throw out the pot sections, lay some gravel in the bottom, then cover with hardware cloth. Lay down a grow mat of some kind on top of that and then the oat seeds. If I could just figure out a way to get the vapor into the oat seed house without it cooling off too much. I wonder what the optimum temp is for sprouting oats in a vapor bath? Can one cook them if they get too hot? I wonder if they turn into Green feed faster than 4 days in a vapor bath? So they are supposed to germinate in 20-30 hours. Then grow 1-2 inches a day. So technically, by the 4th day one could have 6 inch long sprouts?!? I have used the mason jar method on the kitchen counter before. By the time my oat sprouts were 4 day sold they were between 2-3inches. That's quite a dif from the vapor bath sprouts!!!
-------------------
ok, I found an article, which I have bookmarked somewhere ,which says the temp in the vapor bath should be 70 degrees.

 

[The Old Yolks]

Can someone tell me if Mr. Don Schrider is the man to contact for Brown Leghorns still. Thank you,
Nan

 

[englands rocks]

Yes ,Don still has dark and light leghorns

 

[Turk Raphael]

no, I am looking to help a 7 yr. old who is looking to get started in the breed. Thanks for the Nittany Dotte URL I will send it to them.
Best,
Karen ( waiting on my LF white Chanteclers next Aug.)

August sounds about right! lol

 

[3riverschick]

August sounds about right! lol

works for me!
Best,
Karen