Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[desertmarcy]

This is a good conversation. Each of us has our own goals for our specific breed(s). I'm not on any soapbox. I am merely expressing my own goals and desires. After 50+ years of keeping birds, I don't do this for anyone's else expectations, but for my own.

Our line of Barred Rocks is now my own. It is built on a foundation of two other lines, but from now on, it's no one else's but my own, good, bad or indifferent. Reading the poultry journals from the early 1900's one can see birds that rival the best Rocks of today, laying 260-280 eggs, maturing in a reasonable time and snatched right from the farm pen and taken to fairs and shows of the era. Stunning good birds. The glory days of the true dual purpose fowl.

Again, each breeder has to have their own vision and goals. So be it. Here? I'll be pushing to cut laying starts from 38 weeks down to 30 weeks. That's the goal. I want SOP weights in 8 months, not 10. These are my own goals. This makes me happy and that's all that really matters. I've really no one else to please or impress. Those of you a bit older may understand.

What about the Barred Rocks? I have always read that those need to mature slowly, to get the good clean barring. If you are pushing those too, I am curious to hear if you are able to maintain excellent barring.

 

[colburg]

 
I can and will only speak to our birds.  We're pushing them and selecting for earlier maturity.  Waiting a year for the adults to gain their size and waiting 9-10 weeks for feathering of chicks and waiting 38 weeks for the pullets to begin to lay……. all this, (and this is just my take), is far too long.  I don't expect these heirloom Reds and Rocks to compete with the modern, fast, fast, fast hatchery stock, don't need or want them to, but really, my concern is that breeds face possible extinction with rates this slow.  Other than fanciers, who can tolerate such slow growth?   I believe these venerable American breeds and can do better, if we focus on selecting for faster development.  If we could see a 10-15% improvement, it would stimulate much more interest in them.   

Matt, I like your 90% at 6 month target.  That has meaning to me.  

Awesome.  I'm always beating the drum for standard bred poultry, and it takes wind out of the sails when you have to acknowledge their are breeders out there that don't push or care about productivity.  Especially for dual purpose fowl like Rocks, Reds, Dorkings, etc. you can't wait til they're a year old to reach weight, that's going to make them tough and inedible.  Yes, given enough time some birds might catch up to and maybe rarely surpass size of the faster maturing birds, BUT if you breed from those birds your line is going to get slower and slower maturing.  The cost though is huge...I haven't had your line of Barred Rocks, but I did have a great line of White Rocks at one point, and the Asiatics, and Orpingtons, and Dorkings, and they all eat a ton. , waiting for 8+ months to get eggs?  10+ months for meat?  Doesn't make sense.  I'll wait 10-11 months for tail feathering (showing Langshan cockerels is an exercise of frustration and patience), but for meat and eggs?  No way.

 

Good for you! There was a time when these breeds did well in the showroom

Definitely agree here.  And for those of us that like to show, and promote standard bred birds, we really need to wake up and make sure the birds are productive if we want the fancy, and the shows to stick around.  You're not going to recruit a lot of new show folks if they have to keep a show flock AND a flock for eggs and meat, just not gonna happen.  Even the OEGB.

Matt, for production, or even profit, what breeds would you be looking at? I agree about 2 flocks. While contemplating things over on the Farming thread, the thought of an SOP flock and a production flock are rather off-putting.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
Good point. I totally agree. I left a critical word out of my prior post. Bob would have said "Cull ONLY for vigor the first year." You can cull for type later. But the vigor has to come first.
Would you both expand on vigor and define this so I can apply it?

 

[thedragonlady]

I can and will only speak to our birds. We're pushing them and selecting for earlier maturity. Waiting a year for the adults to gain their size and waiting 9-10 weeks for feathering of chicks and waiting 38 weeks for the pullets to begin to lay……. all this, (and this is just my take), is far too long. I don't expect these heirloom Reds and Rocks to compete with the modern, fast, fast, fast hatchery stock, don't need or want them to, but really, my concern is that breeds face possible extinction with rates this slow. Other than fanciers, who can tolerate such slow growth? I believe these venerable American breeds and can do better, if we focus on selecting for faster development. If we could see a 10-15% improvement, it would stimulate much more interest in them.

Matt, I like your 90% at 6 month target. That has meaning to me.

I value early maturity and size in my Orps. They lay at 5 months old , almost to the day, and they keep on laying. My big girls have continued to lay right through their molt.I'm collecting 11-12 eggs a day from 12 girls.I worried about keeping laying ability in the buffs, because of crossing in the English buffs, but selecting for a slightly longer body in the birds that I keep, in contrast to the very short backed English birds, has paid off.These are big girls too. Hens are 10-11 lbs.

 

[Fred's Hens]

What about the Barred Rocks? I have always read that those need to mature slowly, to get the good clean barring. If you are pushing those too, I am curious to hear if you are able to maintain excellent barring.

I re-read the old Breed Book and Standard of Perfection from the early 1900's again last night. I've read it a dozen times or more. There are enough old plates and photos to get a picture of a Standard bred Barred Rock in that era. Reading it over and over again leaves you with an understanding of how in balance the show vs meat/eggs those early folks kept things. Whether this is true is up to the modern reader to judge. Just because stories are old and the book is old doesn't mean that people weren't a bit disingenuous then as they might be today.

Since Plymouth Rocks were widely kept, we ought to be able to see them in candid, ordinary photographs from the era.
I apologize for not being able to give proper credit to the owners of these photos.





One does see in the old photos a kind of Barred Rock that is barred differently than what we normally see today. We see sharp enough barring, be we see a wider white/black barring, and fewer bars per square inch on the bird. There are also statements that the Standard bred Barred Rocks begin to lay at 22 weeks. Even if those were the exceptions, one is left with the impression that surely by 26 weeks, the Standard bred Barred Rock were laying well. There are also discussions, in print, concerning processing for meat at the same age, for quality carcasses.

 

[Wisher1000]

Quote: not sure if you're for or against what I said... but IMO a heritage breed should be one that can grow, sustain itself and reproduce quite well on whatever feed is available, in addition to being willing and capable of finding their own if nothing else is forthcoming. not those requiring high protein, massive quantities, etc. I want a good table carcass from a bird of any age (not just young). the dorking fits that bill for me. IMO the older roos are more filling, almost as tender and every bit as tasty as the younger ones, they just have more meat on their bones.

another benefit, unlike faster growing breeds, the dorking builds it's frame first, so the bones are mature by the time the body starts getting heavy, which means the bone structure can be lighter than similar sized birds... compared to a similarly sized 'dotte, the dorking has more meat to bone ratio in my experience, than the 'dotte does.
Ki4 - I'm certainly not against you, I'm not against anybody. I'm here to learn and I love a good discussion, it helps me ( and other readers ) to understand. I interject what I'm thinking to see if it is on or off track. I will listen to the old masters here who not only have decades of experience in breeding, but who are consistant winners in the shows, and who are concerned and patient enough to steer a floundering noob in the right direction. There is alot of great advice in just this discussion that you introduced, especially the summation from Yellow House Farm which will be copied, printed and placed into my breeding reference notebook (thanks, YHF!)

ETA:
I have some idea rattling around in my head that I can't quite get to jell... something about keeping the foraging traits incase they are needed but supplementing for show in order to reveal the full potential of the genes present........ I'll keep trying to get that thought organized......

 

[armorfirelady]

What about the Barred Rocks? I have always read that those need to mature slowly, to get the good clean barring. If you are pushing those too, I am curious to hear if you are able to maintain excellent barring.

I re-read the old Breed Book and Standard of Perfection from the early 1900's again last night. I've read it a dozen times or more. There are enough old plates and photos to get a picture of a Standard bred Barred Rock in that era. Reading it over and over again leaves you with an understanding of how in balance the show vs meat/eggs those early folks kept things. Whether this is true is up to the modern reader to judge. Just because stories are old and the book is old doesn't mean that people weren't a bit disingenuous then as they might be today. Since Plymouth Rocks were widely kept, we ought to be able to see them in candid, ordinary photographs from the era. I apologize for not being able to give proper credit to the owners of these photos. One does see in the old photos a kind of Barred Rock that is barred differently than what we normally see today. We see sharp enough barring, be we see a wider white/black barring, and fewer bars per square inch on the bird. There are also statements that the Standard bred Barred Rocks begin to lay at 22 weeks. Even if those were the exceptions, one is left with the impression that surely by 26 weeks, the Standard bred Barred Rock were laying well. There are also discussions, in print, concerning processing for meat at the same age, for quality carcasses.

Just a lurking newbie here but I have to say that my BR started laying around 22 weeks. She grew slowly and went through a juvie molt. She is now laying daily tho it's still a pullet sized egg. Her barring is not SOP but to me she is beautiful. She looks huge to look at her but she is all feathers. To me that means she is still growing slowly and will fill in weight wise as she gets older. She is bigger size wise then my partridge rocks but they are solid. I do have to say she is my most vocal hen but she does forage well. The only downfall is she flies and likes to hop fences. I've curbed that for now but it amazes me how smart the breed is as well

Here she is at about 22 weeks next to a BCM/EE mix that is at least 6 weeks older than her. I only feed them once a day at night so they have to forage in their run for their breakfast. The compost pile is their favorite spot. I like the BR breed and I believe she will make a good dual purpose bird once she fills out more. She will never be show quality but she is a good showing of bird regardless IMO. I need to get a SOP just to see how close she is.

 

[Maggiesdad]

Would you both expand on vigor and define this so I can apply it?

(two cents, FWIW

)

Hogan goes into detail describing the chicken that thrives, hustles and has vigor in the Call of the Hen. Knowing it when you see it comes from spending time with your flock and comparing a lot of birds.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Even 2 cents is welcome.

THrives, hustles, vigor and observing behavior

THank you.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

There are lots of "tricks" for vigor, but--as always--it comes down to numbers and focus. You have to have enough of the same thing to develop a lucid appreciation for variance. Obviously there is the easy selection piece of culling individual birds that fall ill when the others are fine, or those that succumb extremely while the others just seem to be bit off. Cull them out. Then there are subtle points. In the winter, are there birds that sit on the roosts all day fluffing their feathers, trying to generate heat, versus those consistently down in the litter looking for tidbits? Are there birds that carry their tail or wing in a droop? Are there birds that are consistenly sitting out on range while others are foraging? Are their eyes bright and well defined with clearly outline parts? Do they redden in the head gear at the appropriate time or do they take too long to express sexual maturity? When you separate cockerels from pullets, a couple of week later do you suddenly find a couple of cockerels in with your pullets that you had erroneously kept with the pullets because they were maturing less quickly than their confreres? Inordinate slowness to mature is a clear sign of lack of vigor.

Back to only raising the number of breeds for which one can hatch a significant number of each--for most of us this will be on or, maybe, two. One should not have to choose between type and vigor. If one hatches so few that there is one that is typical and one that is vigorous then, yes, one chooses the vigorous bird. However, if one is sufficiently disciplined and focused, one has enough birds such that one has those that are typical without vigor, vigorous without type, and some that are both typical and vigorous; these latter are those kept. It always comes down to the numbers one has for selection and how much variance is needed from the parent stock. The further off the parent stock is from the projected goal, the more one needs to rely on genetic variance to pop out the desired end, which means the more one needs to hatch in order hit the jackpot. One should be able to select in all matters of essential concern each season. If one can't, one is going in the wrong direction.