Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Arielle]

Quote: Here is the original thread.https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/9738/homemade-yogurt-updated-cheese-and-buttermilk/0_20

THe first post has all the recipes listed for many milk products.

One of the values of raising heritage chickens and birds is that I can raise them with bettter nutrition than the commercial growers. THe birds in turn provide better nutrition to my family directly thru meats and eggs, and thru learning to feed my family better in many other aspects as well.

One of the few memories I have of my grandmother was being in her kitchen, and asking to try a sip of her small glass of buttermilk. TOo sour, and handed it back. lol SHe died a few short years later and I painted my kitchen the same color as hers. A buttermilk yellow. lol

 

[3riverschick]

What sort of nutritional glitches ? An interruption in growth, from parasites, or nutrition, will affect width, and overall growth.

I changed their feed formula several times and the quantity they were getting.
I didn't give them any extras because the feeds said they were "complete" and
I wasn't sure enough about poultry nutrition to make sure I wasn't overfeeding
them in one nutrient or another. Maybe that was a mistake?
Karen

 

[thedragonlady]

I changed their feed formula several times and the quantity they were getting.
I didn't give them any extras because the feeds said they were "complete" and
I wasn't sure enough about poultry nutrition to make sure I wasn't overfeeding
them in one nutrient or another. Maybe that was a mistake?
Karen

These birds did not have a balanced ration available free choice ? Young birds need all the feed they can get to grow, as well as some supplementation, if they are going to have optimum growth and development. PM ing you my feeding program that has worked very well for me for 50 years, as well as for my buyers.

 

[Beekissed]

Here is the original thread.https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/9738/homemade-yogurt-updated-cheese-and-buttermilk/0_20

THe first post has all the recipes listed for many milk products.

One of the values of raising heritage chickens and birds is that I can raise them with bettter nutrition than the commercial growers. THe birds in turn provide better nutrition to my family directly thru meats and eggs, and thru learning to feed my family better in many other aspects as well.

One of the few memories I have of my grandmother was being in her kitchen, and asking to try a sip of her small glass of buttermilk. TOo sour, and handed it back. lol SHe died a few short years later and I painted my kitchen the same color as hers. A buttermilk yellow. lol

My grandma loved buttermilk too and I first tasted it at her house and fell in love with it. Loved the sour! She used to give the whey to her chickens from her dairy production of this or that. She also used to use lye soap to wash her dishes and then would give the water to the pigs and chickens to drink, said it kept them healthy. I'm sure she didn't know exactly why but she was right...the soap acts as a surfactant,dissolving the protective oils on the skin of parasitical worms, allowing gastric acids to kill them.

They knew things worked because they had the proof on hand but they may not have had the science behind why(though I am a WHY person most of the time) they worked..which seemed good enough.

 

[catdaddyfro]

My grandma loved buttermilk too and I first tasted it at her house and fell in love with it. Loved the sour! She used to give the whey to her chickens from her dairy production of this or that. She also used to use lye soap to wash her dishes and then would give the water to the pigs and chickens to drink, said it kept them healthy. I'm sure she didn't know exactly why but she was right...the soap acts as a surfactant,dissolving the protective oils on the skin of parasitical worms, allowing gastric acids to kill them.

They knew things worked because they had the proof on hand but they may not have had the science behind why(though I am a WHY person most of the time) they worked..which seemed good enough.

Quote:
LOL yeah they didn't have candy crush saga, facebook or twitter to kill all their time with LOL they actually sat and studied what was up or down at the time being. My Grandad's mindset always amazed me as a child, I remember he would say this when you didn't move fast enough: "come on son we're a'burning daylight" now that I'm older I appreciate his gestures more and realize the science behind them even more. He was born in the dark and a lot of his first memories of the world was without lights 24/7.

Jeff

And here I sit yackin on the computer myself huh? LOL
again today I need to practice my preaching a little more myself, LOL

 

[capayvalleychick]

Prepotency is and excellent conversation and very appropriate to this thread!

... If the genes are sex-lined, they come from the sire or from the dam's sire.
...

Now, genes are either dominant, which means you can see them with only one dosage from one parent, or they're recessive, which means that a chick needs the same gene from both parents for it to be visible, i.e. part of its phenotype. If a recessive gene is paired with a dominant gene, it's still present, it's just invisible.

....
Now this is considering dominants vs. recessives and the possibility of outcross, but within a given strain, one has modifiers working on a pattern or on a body structure. Many, many qualities are had by modifiers which are called quantitative, meaning they are the product of a breeding program.

Eventually one risks getting a cockerel that is homozygous for all of the necessary parts and that has a very high level of quantitative modifiers to pass around. His offspring are like BAM, because he is a genetic powerhouse. He can make up for the failings of his mates because of his homozygous prepotency and high volume of quantitative modifiers. Now, in theory, a hen can also be prepotent, but she will always be at the disadvantage when it comes to any sex-linked quality because a hen can only pass on a sex-linked quality to male offspring whereas a male can pass on a sex-linked quality to both male and female chicks. Also, the prepotent male is particularly valuable because it can be so easily spread about in the breeding pen(s).

The importance of modifier accumulation cannot be overstated, thus Dragonlady is always mentioning "Having a picture in your mind of what you're going for." One must continue to select in a specific direction in order to accumulate the various modifiers that are going to give that certain je ne sais quoi to your strain. If you keep changing your imagined ideal, your modifier accumulaton will be like a roller coaster ride, and your stock will lack consistency. Whenever you see a strain that's not simply, as Bob would say, a 92 point bird, what we refer to as being "representative of the breed", meaning, yeah, all the brids are rose combed, all white, all white skinned, etc..., but when you see a strain where each bird is consistent with the others and each quality just seems to stand out at you like a neon sign of "excellence", this happens because the modifiers have been uniformly accumulated throughout all the birds, and they are genetically very similar for the desired traits.

This is one of the first times that I've read something on genetics that made any sense, so thank you.

Which genes are sex linked? Which genes are dominant and which are recessive?

Can you give examples of modifiers? They can be desired or undesired, correct?

 

[Arielle]

Quote: I'm a why person, too AND my son, his favorite word is "Why?" In know partly because much of my learning is from university ag depts and they are always quoting studies. I have mentioned before, and will here again, wish that the univeristies would extend the studies to evaluate the old methods as a support to the renewed interest in backyard fowl. Until then, I rely on reliable sources.

ANy down sides to giving wash water with lye soap. I have been toying with the idea of making my own lye soap as it is less harsh than most commercial soaps. My kids have sensitive skin--

 

[gjensen]

Everyone was raised together from hatch(April) . They were separated the latter part of June. The 4 cockerels went into a grow out pen alone. The rest of the pullets and the remaining 2 cockerels went into the big coop with their adult aunt and her daughter ( hatched Feb. 23rd.) None of the cockerels were housed with another adult cock. My stud cock and the chicks' dam live in a separate coop. There were some nutritional glitches after 2 months old. How does that make the birds narrower in the rear?
Karen

Karen, I do not think what you are describing is nutritional etc. As thoughtful as you are, I am sure your birds have been fed well. What you are describing is genetic. What is behind your birds has as much or more influence than the birds that you have started with.
You have done nothing wrong with them, and you can't help what you start with is carrying. Just because you do not see it, doesn't mean it is not there. You are just going to have to hatch your way out of it, and if you cannot, get something that will help.

 

[Beekissed]

Lot's of us ol hill folks used lye soap and no ill results. Back then I don't think anyone had "sensitive" skin...

...just leathery, hard as nails skin. Could be because the foods they ate reacted differently in their bodies to produce less reactivity in the body to external stimuli. Being exposed to germs and allergens for a life time had its benefits and everyone knew~back in the day~the family with the dirtiest, most ill-kept little kids with the snot running down their lips were the family that would outlive everyone else on the holler.

Sorry...didn't mean to jack the thread again. I'm interested in this genetics vs. nutrition thing when it comes to body length and width. I'm sure good nutrition has a lot to do with bone development and strength, but not so sure that it dictates the body style of the bird. It would have to be a severe malnourishment to stunt growth to such a degree to override genetics, wouldn't it? I'm thinking that, with normal nutrition, good lines will be good lines and conversely, one cannot bolster nutrition to the degree so as to erase bad lines. At least, that's the thought rolling around in this big ol' empty space so maybe one of y'all could pull that bag of snakes out and lay them in a row for me?

 

[Arielle]

THe commercial feeds are usually a combo of grains to have an average protein; then a premix is added to balance and fortify the micro minerals and vitamins. Every mouthful is complete. I don't see this feed causing issues. Karen-- my bet is on the genetics--

genetics + environment = phenotype

THe environment that these genetics ( your orig trio) have move to has change conciderably since leaving the breeder. Very hard to separate g and e effects. Change one factor and keep all others the same to search out your answer.

In the horse world, the Dutch Warmbood stallions are all sent to the same facility for evaluation. Same handlers, same environment, to better evaluate the genetics of the horse. NOt a perfect system but the DUtch have worked out a system that picks the best 25-35 stallions this way in a matter of months, and they are now the best sporthorse in the world. ( the next step is they must compete at shows, and produce offspring that are evaluated = the real genetic worth is realized.)

(Bee-- lye soap is supposed to be better because all the glycerin is still in there. OR have I missed something? YOu can pm me.)