Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[thedragonlady]

Could you get more British? : Suitability for use intended....YAY!

It's something to think about. When vetting a horse for soundness, the Brit vets would not certify a light weight hunter as suitable for a 225 lb man to hunt. Not enough bone and substance to carry weight for a long distance, over rough country. The same horse would most likely pass the vet, if going to be hunted by a 125 Lb woman. It is a very sensible, practical custom. One that I wish vets here would practice.Over here we get all tangled up in x-rays and flexion tests, never considering suitability for use.

 

[3riverschick]

You know I had to respond to this. LOL Totally agree. The finer points are great, but what people need first is to understand why the breed looks the way it does. ( snipped for brevity) The finer points come with time as long as you have it set in your head what the rough outline looks like, and you understand what type of body it HAS to have to do it's job.

Edit: To make my point clearer, butcher all those birds I mentioned, the carcass is gonna look near identical (skin color not withstanding).

I just finished reading this vintage article on Sussex breed type.
http://tinyurl.com/kootsrc
Sussex Breed Type or the Characteristics of Typical Sussex Page 479
One of the best I have seen on the subject. Full of "Why's" for the "What" like the ones you listed in your post 17041. Written by experts in the breed. I learned several things today about Sussex breed type from it. if you are interested in Sussex or dual purpose breeds, it's a good read. The section about leg size and substance really pertains to what Dragonlady wrote above.
Best,
Karen

 

[Pathfinders]

It's something to think about. When vetting a horse for soundness, the Brit vets would not certify a light weight hunter as suitable for a 225 lb man to hunt. Not enough bone and substance to carry weight for a long distance, over rough country. The same horse would most likely pass the vet, if going to be hunted by a 125 Lb woman. It is a very sensible, practical custom. One that I wish vets here would practice.Over here we get all tangled up in x-rays and flexion tests, never considering suitability for use.

At the risk of veering (not trying to do so overmuch, this point applies to poultry in a way), one of the things I've learned over the years about a horse's ability to bear weight is, it's not how tall the horse is, but how broad the frame. A broader frame, with a bigger bone structure, can bear more weight, as it is distributed more evenly. A broader frame on a chicken can do the same thing, hence my desire for big, wide birds. Better frame, better able to hold the meat I'm looking for. Wider back end, better able to lay well. I'm looking for (not quite) a Belgian, as it were, not a Thoroughbred.

 

[thedragonlady]

You know I had to respond to this. LOL Totally agree. The finer points are great, but what people need first is to understand why the breed looks the way it does. A Plymouth Rock, a Rhode Island Red, a Dorking, an Orpington, an Australorp and a heaping helping of other dual purpose birds all looks much different, however they have a lot in common as well. Tail angle, tight or loose feathering, station, none of them matter much if that bird has no body depth or width to support a good amount of meat. Of if that bird is pinched up at the rear and doesn't have any length of body for egg production. A good solid head indicative of a solid skeletal and bone structure is important regardless of breed. All this stuff is covered in that first 40 pages (and then again in the breed description). I don't need to check the Standard, or have even glanced at it to know that the description for a New Hampshire body probably reads something like "Breast: Full and round, Back: Wide, carried it's entire length to base of tail" Because most of the dual purpose birds are similar in that aspect. The finer points come with time as long as you have it set in your head what the rough outline looks like, and you understand what type of body it HAS to have to do it's job.

Edit: To make my point clearer, butcher all those birds I mentioned, the carcass is gonna look near identical (skin color not withstanding).

Fubnny you should mention carcasses. I send all my cull cockerels to a friend who butchers them. There is a vast difference in a proper Orp's carcass to any other breed. The keel is twice as deep, with much more meat on the breast and thighs.This is noticeable on 5 month old cockerels. On roasting hens, who are mature, the difference would be huge. I've certainly never handled another breed who's legs I could not grasp one handed to examine them. No way with my Orps.

 

[3riverschick]

At the risk of veering (not trying to do so overmuch, this point applies to poultry in a way), one of the things I've learned over the years about a horse's ability to bear weight is, it's not how tall the horse is, but how broad the frame. A broader frame, with a bigger bone structure, can bear more weight, as it is distributed more evenly. A broader frame on a chicken can do the same thing, hence my desire for big, wide birds. Better frame, better able to hold the meat I'm looking for. Wider back end, better able to lay well. I'm looking for (not quite) a Belgian, as it were, not a Thoroughbred.

Hi Pathfinders,
That article I just mentioned discussed width of back. One thing it says is if you hold a Sussex cock on your left arm
and pile 1/2 peck of feed on its back without spilling, then it is sufficiently "wide". I love these old articles where they describe things like that.
Best,
Karen

 

[TeaChick]

I have a black Jersey Giant. Is that a heritage breed?

 

[BGMatt]

Fubnny you should mention carcasses. I send all my cull cockerels to a friend who butchers them. There is a vast difference in a proper Orp's carcass to any other breed. The keel is twice as deep, with much more meat on the breast and thighs.This is noticeable on 5 month old cockerels. On roasting hens, who are mature, the difference would be huge. I've certainly never handled another breed who's legs I could not grasp one handed to examine them. No way with my Orps.

Perhaps not, but that's what others SHOULD be like. Or at least close. For instance none of the Asiatics should be easy to handle one-handed (especially not the Brahma or Cochin, but the Langshan shouldn't be either.) I know of a White Rock line that has that type of body on them too. Unfortunately I've seen plenty of birds that should be that way that aren't.

 

[BGMatt]

I have a black Jersey Giant. Is that a heritage breed?

Jersey Giants are certainly an old breed, but they suffer the same plight as the Rhode Island Red, Plymouth Rock and so many others were finding a true, standard bred "Heritage" Jersey Giant is not as easy as going to the feed store or hatchery and getting a "Giant". The hatchery bred birds probably outnumber the real thing about a thousand to one.

Case Acres is a good example of some really nice Giants http://www.caseacres.com/jersey-giants-and-cornish.html

 

[Ripster]

At the risk of veering (not trying to do so overmuch, this point applies to poultry in a way), one of the things I've learned over the years about a horse's ability to bear weight is, it's not how tall the horse is, but how broad the frame. A broader frame, with a bigger bone structure, can bear more weight, as it is distributed more evenly. A broader frame on a chicken can do the same thing, hence my desire for big, wide birds. Better frame, better able to hold the meat I'm looking for. Wider back end, better able to lay well. I'm looking for (not quite) a Belgian, as it were, not a Thoroughbred.

I'm with you on this Laura!

 

[Pathfinders]

Fubnny you should mention carcasses. I send all my cull cockerels to a friend who butchers them. There is a vast difference in a proper Orp's carcass to any other breed. The keel is twice as deep, with much more meat on the breast and thighs.This is noticeable on 5 month old cockerels. On roasting hens, who are mature, the difference would be huge. I've certainly never handled another breed who's legs I could not grasp one handed to examine them. No way with my Orps.

LOL!

I was reminded of this as I was washing birds for shows this fall (all by myself.) Those darned Buckeyes were so wide it was a struggle to keep them in the bucket and not flap their wings. Felt like I needed three hands, two to hold the bird, one to wash it.

Made me miss my Dutch Bantams, boy did it, who can be held easily in one hand with space left over.

Not sure if I've uploaded this pic to this thread, but here are some of my Dutch waiting to be blow-dried, back in the day. Chicken burritos!