Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

I don't know. I think the big difference is the Hogan Method tells us about current and future production, while trap nesting doesn't tell us anything about future production or offspring's production, only past. As you pointed out it doesn't take the body or shape of the bird into account, but we know these are important for consistency. I've used both, and found them to be complimentary (by which I mean, each has confirmed the others findings), but Hogan's method is a lot less work and fuss, especially for newcomers to use and learn. What I have NOT found is there is no correlation between a good laying bird and having good laying offspring according to Hogan's Method. I have ALWAYS found that a bird that scores well on his system, and conforms to the standard will almost ALWAYS produce good producing and good scoring offspring. Which is why I have never bothered confirming the pre-potency theory.

Edit: I guess in my rambling I actually answered the question. Trap-nesting is limited in that it only measures past production. I have never had trap-nesting not confirm the Hogan method, except I've always found the Hogan Method correct for future production as well, which makes trap nesting not needed.

That answers a lot of questions I had, thank you. Oscar Smart says his method will allow trap nesting to predict which matings will produce future good layers. But that is for another post. Right now, thanks for clearing up a lot of confusion.
Best,
Karen

 

[normanack]

[COLOR=008000]Why don't Hoganists and trap nesters get along? why does each side say the other is unnecessary?[/COLOR]

From the little I've read from the time period, it seems to have been SOP (standard operating procedure, not the more usual meaning) to refute others' arguments quite strongly, sometimes almost to the point of ridicule, while laying out your own.

 

[suncatcher]

I picked up my pair of Barnevelders yesterday, and will try to get pics later, but I have a couple of questions.

First, they came from someone in MD who got their stock from someone in VA.  The woman said she would try to get the name of the person in MD from her daughter, but anyone have a guess as to who in VA or MD is breeding them?

Second, they are just about 4 months old, the cockerel is quite a bit larger than the pullet - I'd say at least half again her size.  Is this common in Barnevelders, and will she ultimately catch up, or should they be pretty different in size?

They are getting along well with the layer flock, he has been crowing in competition with the Fayoumi cock bird in the next enclosure, he is new to crowing so is probably enjoying the practice   They are very pretty, but I have a lot of studying to do before I have any clue as to their proximity to the Standard.

Congrats! This thread has lots of info and pictures of Barnevelders.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ders-lets-work-together-and-improve-the-breed

 

[gjensen]

This Call Of The Hen thing is interesting. From what I have read, there seem to have been two competing methods for selecting for egg production in poultry. The first ( I think chronologically) was developed and published by Oscar Smart. He was considered the top poultry geneticist of his day. His method involved trap-nesting ..or.. counting egg production by hens over a 3 month period. His work was published in 2 volumes I could find. "The inheritance of fecundity in fowls" (1917) at http://www.archive.org https://archive.org/details/cu31924003138710 Here is the 1921 edition (footnote), I like the pagination better : https://archive.org/details/cu31924003077611 and in the book which I bought from the U.K., "The Burn-Murdoch Poultry Course". Which interestingly arrived with an ephemera piece of 1918 glazed window screen, touted to be the next big thing in poultry coop window covering.).
Then Walter Hogan showed up with his observational methods of discerning potential for egg production. Personally, I think Oscar Smart was the more well educated of the two. However, with the growth of more backyard poultry persons with lives besides poultry.. trap nesting became a burden instead of a viable method. With the pressures of a busy life, who wouldn't want to trade months of trap nesting and record keeping for just "looking" at a chicken. While most small poultry keepers today don't have time for trap nesting, Still I wonder about Smart's' method.
From the Burn Murdoch" book, Just a brief excerpt to outline it, "I have found in practical selection that the best period for the winter test is 3 months, starting either on the 15th of Oct. and ending on the 15th of January, or starting on the 1st of November and ending on the 1st of February. The former period for the earlier pullets, and the latter for the later hatched.".
The way Smart pulled this all together, so simply and thoroughly, with his descriptions of laying factors L1, L2 and Zero plus how they inherit. Very interesting. I also believe that some may have thought they needed to trap-nest for a full year as the pros were doing with the laying trials...when Smart proves such is not the case.
It seems to me that, in the end, the two system's competition ( if one wants to call it that) was solved by the concept of time management. In the modern world, it simply was much easier to "observe" the fowl, rather than trap nest it.
Best,
Karen
(footnote) By the time the 1921 edition was published, the young man ,Oscar Smart, had recently passed away from chronic ill health.

Trap nesting and proving families have brought us farther concerning laying genetics than any other method.

Egg laying genetics is not simply capacity.

When it comes to egg laying genetics it is more about the family than it is the individual. You cannot make improvements until you have proof. The proof is in the pudding kind of thing. Trap nesting is the best way to do that. Collecting data from the individual hens, the families, and the sires. Multiple sires are required.

The Hogan method is of interest to me, because trap nesting is not a practical option here.

 

[Darkangael]

I have a question I know this isn't the current Standard of Perfection but do you think it will be helpful as far as learning the Standard as I do not currently have the means to be able to afford the newest Standard.

It is the 1905 version so I know it is not up to date with current information on everything just wondering how helpful it might be.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=1HAUAAAAYAAJ&rdid=book-1HAUAAAAYAAJ&rdot=1

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

I have a question I know this isn't the current Standard of Perfection but do you think it will be helpful as far as learning the Standard as I do not currently have the means to be able to afford the newest Standard.

It is the 1905 version so I know it is not up to date with current information on everything just wondering how helpful it might be.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=1HAUAAAAYAAJ&rdid=book-1HAUAAAAYAAJ&rdot=1

Best way to answer your question would be to know what breed(s) you were intending to work with

 

[NYREDS]

I have a question I know this isn't the current Standard of Perfection but do you think it will be helpful as far as learning the Standard as I do not currently have the means to be able to afford the newest Standard.

It is the 1905 version so I know it is not up to date with current information on everything just wondering how helpful it might be.

https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=1HAUAAAAYAAJ&rdid=book-1HAUAAAAYAAJ&rdot=1

There have been many changes & additions to the Standard sin ce 1905. It's an interesting book & of historical importance but other than that not too useful IMO.
Check EBAY or ABE.com for used, more recent editions. There are usually some at reasonable prices.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Try here. If you have a Kindle ,you can get it there for less than 10.00 . Used copies in regular book form for 31. and up. Nope, the Kindle is a vintage edition. No help. But the 31. is a 1973, that's a bit better.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1445513609/ref=nosim/addallbooksearch

Here's one:
Bookseller: Copperfield's Used and Rare Books (Petaluma, CA, U.S.A.)
American Standard of Perfection 1989
American Poultry Association
US$ 20.00
http://tinyurl.com/pbqnwal
Best,
Karen

 

[PA Farmer24]

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you. May you have a great day with the ones you love.

 

[Darkangael]

Thank you all for your opinions. I suppose I will have to wait until I can afford the standard and will check local libraries for a copy as well.