Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

I agree, Fentress! At the bottom of the bottom of things, I'm pretty practical and I need a practical bird out back. I'm thinking my version of keeping to the middle of the road will be to breed the best layers that are also large and meaty birds and keep doing that until they are all large, meaty hens that lay like a champ, reproduce their own kind, are hardy to the max and can rustle their own grub for the better part of their meal. I'd breed them to the rooster that has a good size and sex on his brain at an early age, regardless of how high his tail may be and see if his offspring lay like they should.

Then, with a whole flock of hens that have the basics, one could then worry about feathering, points, type, etc. Forget the shows, forget the points and forget the SOP until they can produce what they were meant to produce and do it well...eggs and meat. That would be my primary goal. And they'd have to do it without lights up their butt for the winter, chemicals in their systems and without high protein feeds on hand at all times.

Of course, that could just be a pipe dream..but I find it the only one worth having to achieve what I would want in a heritage breed chicken.

If you had Sussex, you could do all this and also breed to the SOP.
Because in Sussex, production values *are* the SOP.

See Waltz's Ark in CO http://www.naturalark.com/ ;
Emily Robertson in Vancouver http://truenorthfarm.ca/ :
Walt Boese in MT ( Walt's Black Powder and Archery in Deer Lodge ) ,
Walt Reichert, Simpsonville, KY 40067 ,
Sunset Meadows Farms in OH http://sunsetmeadowfarm.com/chickens_and_eggs.html ,
Tony Albritton, ID https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/433985/feather-hills-farm-heritage-hatchery , just to name a few.
Best,
Karen

 

[Beekissed]

4-5 eggs a week is an amazing number for a dual purpose fowl. Since you're used to hatchery stock what you don't realize is how small hatchery stock is. A true Plymouth Rock for example is almost twice the size of a hatchery bird, which resembles a Leghorn more than a Rock (probably because hatcheries have for years bred leghorn into other breeds to improve laying. This is why breed selection is important.

I don't understand the slow growth either. Our predecessors certainly couldn't afford to let birds grow out for almost a year before they got productive. As Walt said, his New Hampshires have the growth rate they should have, it's going to be up to the breeder. You also have to realize, and I'll try not to step on any toes, but there are very few serious breeders on BYC, the majority of people here view chickens as pets instead of livestock, and therefore are willing to put up with things that people who are breeding them for use as a food source primarily would never put up with. The ones that are serious aren't as accepting of slow growth and such, or have different definitions of "slow"

I guess I've been dealing with a different hatchery than y'all. My WRs are anything but small~their carcasses are comparable to a mature DP rooster...they dwarf the heritage WRs I have on my place right now. These WRs would have been killed long ago if the best they could do was 4-5 eggs per week, unless they were past 2 yrs..then I'd allow them to have that low of production. These gals outweigh all other breeds of hens I've had by 2-3 lbs. Must have just got lucky and hit the jackpot on good WR genetics in all that muddle.

I'm thinking I've gotten spoiled on these WRs of mine because I expected they would all perform and be the size of these birds and especially so if a heritage bird. So far I see pretty, hardy and excellent foraging...but no early maturing, no eggs, not much bulk on the build yet.

 

[Beekissed]

If you had Sussex, you could do all this and also breed to the SOP.
Because in Sussex, production values *are* the SOP.

Best,
Karen

That's good to know! Why aren't production values SOP for all layer and dual purpose breeds? After all, dual purpose would be defined by being worthy of laying and meat production, not just mediocre on either one.

 

[MagicChicken]

Quote:
Bee, there are lines of heritage birds that lay just fine and mature at a reasonable rate. If you start with a line that lays and matures at a moderate rate you can breed them toward higher production yourself. It's all a tradeoff. I would be horrified if my birds didn't lay until they were almost a year old. I was delighted to discover my javas started laying at 4-5 months. They won't win any show awards yet but they are solid birds. Pick a breed you want, find a line that produces at a rate you can live with, and go. You of all people know how to raise a good chicken! I'm pretty sure that any line you get will be whipped into shape in no time.

 

[BGMatt]

I guess I've been dealing with a different hatchery than y'all. My WRs are anything but small~their carcasses are comparable to a mature DP rooster...they dwarf the heritage WRs I have on my place right now. These WRs would have been killed long ago if the best they could do was 4-5 eggs per week, unless they were past 2 yrs..then I'd allow them to have that low of production. These gals outweigh all other breeds of hens I've had by 2-3 lbs. Must have just got lucky and hit the jackpot on good WR genetics in all that muddle.

I'm thinking I've gotten spoiled on these WRs of mine because I expected they would all perform and be the size of these birds and especially so if a heritage bird. So far I see pretty, hardy and excellent foraging...but no early maturing, no eggs, not much bulk on the build yet.

You either got supremely lucky or got some terrible "heritage" White Rocks. Please post photos with something in them for scale. Especially White Rocks catch flack for being oversize right now with many specimens exceeding the standard weight, truth be told a lot of the winning White Rock males are probably over the maximum non-dq weight of ~12 lbs (9.5 + 20%) and barely fit in a large fowl show cage which is roughly 2'x2'x2'.

 

[har]

Yep.

X 2 Thanks Karen

 

[Beekissed]

I think I got supremely lucky with these, because these heritage gals are definitely not terrible. They are great except for that little maturing/laying problem. I think that's what has me concerned the most because I naively expected that, if the hatchery mutts were so stellar on the WR breed, then the heritage gals should have been hatched with a cape and tights on because I've been listening to the superiority of the heritage genetics for some time now....but from where I'm standing I'm not seeing it. Oh, they are definitely prettier and have better lines and bones, but they seem to be missing something important.

So, I started lurking here to see if that is typical for heritage birds and sure enough, most of what I'm reading is low production and late maturing. I guess I was just expecting a little more.

Probably just due to my general lack of experience within the heritage line information wheelhouse. I'll just have to readjust my expectations in that vein.

 

[ronott1]

So you would sell your top of the top birds to someone? Nobody should be selling their best birds. I only sell the birds that I would breed from but have their faults as breeders. Everything else goes as layers as they are pet quality. Only the best of my stock stays with me. I would never sell my best birds to anyone. Probably not for any amount. They are the basis for my future birds and would be worth more to me as a breeding bird that could produce hundreds of chicks than as a bird that would be given may $200. I would never charge anyone that amount for any bird, but if someone offers it...

It's not an art, it takes patience and knowing your breed. Anyone can do it with enough time and vision for their flock.

As for the qualities, if you know your breed and more importantly, the line you have been working with, you can simply know how they will continue to develop. When you start adding in extra lines, that is when you will have more difficulty in seeing the quality of the birds at an earlier age.

This does make sense.

One of the reasons I like to hatch eggs. Of course there is not guaranty that the breeder is using his best birds for selling hatching eggs.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

Again, it seems as though there is a misunderstanding in the word "productive."

The hatchery birds will lay more eggs more frequently earlier in their lives, but overall, the heritage birds will lay more eggs for a longer period of time, making them far superior in the egg-laying capacity.

As for the meat processing, they may take a smidge longer, but again, the carcass size will be far larger than a bird bred for production.

Unless, we speak of course of the Cornish X. Personally, I love having a few of those available as dinner. I might have to get back into those for a 6 week dinner.

 

[3riverschick]

That's good to know! Why aren't production values SOP for all layer and dual purpose breeds? After all, dual purpose would be defined by being worthy of laying and meat production, not just mediocre on either one.

I don't know. However, for the Sussex, they were originally developed as a table breed, not a layer. They tweaked the breed to also be good layers. The structure of the bird is a meat bird which is close enough to the middle of the road to also be a layer. In fact their egg laying was developed for 2 purposes. For the winter egg market when prices are high (profit) and for hatching chicks early so their were finished fattening and ready to eat at the Spring Holidays in England ( more profit). Later, their egg laying prowess was enhanced so they could compete with the newer egg laying breeds which were invading England. But first and foremost, they are a Meat breed.
In fact, back in the 1920's , Sussex were placing high and winning laying trials. So much so, that the elders in the breed warned against narrow bodies and other egg breed traits which might detract from the meat qualities of the Sussex. The best winter layer in Sussex fowl are hatched in March. If you look at the exposition on the Sussex SOP I wrote over in the BYC thread Chicken State University, Post 1093 of 2125 :
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-university-large-fowl-sop/1090#post_11446958
Also see the wonderful remarks from Dragonlady in Post 1097.
it becomes apparent that the hallmarks of the Sussex interact to produce a bird with capacity for eggs and capability to both lay and put on flesh for the market. That's why the skin is fine, combs smooth and fine texture; wide flat back; deep body; medium length stout legs spaced well apart., etc.
Best,
Karen
Best,
Kaen