Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[gjensen]

Got some La Flèche in November, two sources. Crossed one male over four unrelated, and one related, females. So far all of the adults seem quite vigorous. My first batch was set for the 31st. Already have 7/15 out on Day 20. No issues with vigor, legs or heads. Very happy with these birds so far, and very excited for the culling process I can endure with them. A lot open for improvement, but seems very manageable. Adults are in great condition health wise, type is right, color is right. Just need to breed some size to them and I will have viable birds in the show hall.

Some picture would be nice. LOL.

 

[Canieldonrad]

Certainly.








































































Currently I have this Male, out of Urch, over 5 females. 1 is an Urch female, the other 4 are from a young man who lives in Massachusetts. I'll likely move the Urch female out of this mating and into a pen with a male I got from the guy in Mass. I'm looking to get an early start with a lot of vigor to slingshot my progress ahead fairly early. Both lines seem very different so it will be interesting to see what pops up. The Urch males have a very nice head to them, although I'd like the comb a tad tighter.





The birds from Mass have a very good body to them. Needs size, but its like a tight RIR. Brick shaped, very upright.

 

[gjensen]

Yep...my son. He is selling the entire flock of Australorps (6 months to 4+ years) to a family in PA. It will be fun watching/helping him do his thing with the NN's. He seems to have a 'master-plan'.

I always knew (hoped) I'd have to roll-over one day.

Some of us may be using different concepts of "maturing." There is the time it takes to begin to lay, the time it takes to flesh out enough for meat, and the time it takes to finish out in growth/show potential. They are not the same time points.

My birds began laying at 4-5 months old but I did not consider them "mature" at that point. More like teenagers who finally got after-school jobs and took some of the pressure off the cost of raising them

The cockerels are still filling out at nearly one year of age, but the quality of the bone structure was evident from about 6 months. This is my first year with the breed. I'm guessing they won't have reached their full potential for another 6-12 months. So I consider these birds slow to mature, but they have been earning some of their keep in terms of eggs and meat since they were about 4 months old. I'm happy.

Sarah

That is right. And everyone has a different breed type and ideal in mind when they say it.

My Catalanas are quick to mature, and a bit slow to flesh out. It will be interesting to see what they do this year, when I cross with related but long removed birds that were gifted to me this summer. My pullets would probably achieve better weights if they did not mature as fast as they did. Depending on how things go this year, I may start cutting their feed with oats while on range at a point. Slow them down a bit.

It seams to me that how a bird grows out is as important than when they grow out.

I do not have any experience with Minorcas, but it would seam that you would want them to take enough time to put that big frame on. That is comparing them to a lighter bird, and smaller boned leghorn.
Never had any Malays, but that seams to be a breed that you would want to grow out slow and sure.

I noted that some gamecock breeders let there stags range with little more than whole corn. They have to work to rustle up what they need. It seams that this is in part for practical reasons, but they also want them to grow out slower and more naturally. There is a belief that this makes for stronger more fit birds in the end. It is hard to argue with the results when you see that vigorous proud cock in good feather.

I noticed that some of my fastest maturing Rocks were a bit clumsy on the legs. Some of the more fit birds structurally were in between the slowest and fastest.

I would guess that Javas with their big heavy frames should be allowed to develop. It is not like they were ever commercial birds like a New Hampshire or Delaware.

It seams to me that there are more breeds that came on the scene before the commercialization of poultry meat. Back when dual purpose was as much about the old hens having enough meat on their bones to be worth stewing. Back when poultry meat was seasonal, and they extra cockerels were a buy product of the laying flock. Yes there was market fowl, but that was more for the city folk that could afford it. It was not long ago when a roasted bird was a luxury item.

All of this changed when there was a mass movement to the cities, agriculture became mechanized, and grain became cheap. Modern breeds like New Hampshires and Delawares followed.

Today they are all chickens.

I do think that when we develop these ideals for ourselves, that it is helpful to put it into perspective. The structural differences between breeds seam to have practical implications. It is what made one breed desirable over another at some point. Leghorns were more efficient, but the Minorcas laid bigger eggs. New Hampshires and Delawares were favored when grain was cheap and plentiful. They were more suited for intensive rearing, and they converted their big appetites into flesh. The Rocks and Reds being in between them and the older breeds like the Java.

When we are a breed enthusiast we do and should strive to make improvements. As long as we do not lose what advantages they might have had over another. There are some advantages to some breeds that grow a little more slow and sure.

Sarah, this post is not directed at you. I just rambled off the thoughts that I had when I read your post and considered your Javas. Of course this is all just opinion.

 

[gjensen]

Canieldonrad, be careful what you ask for LOL. All 36 photos . . . .

Seriously, those are some neat birds. It is interesting to hear your plans for them a well.

I am doing something similar with my birds, but I do not now what I will do with the birds next go round. I am thinking along the lines of crossing them two ways and then taking them back to each side next year. I want to do this with two families, and that will put them back apart. In theory.

With the two families, I would have the room and freedom to run a couple trios on the side.

Thank you for sharing the pictures. I looked through them a couple times. I really like them. You do not see those every day. I wish that I could try everything that I would like to try.

 

[Vamvakas]

I always wanted to have La Fleche but by the way look they look so small in there SOP.. But with thin/flat feathering it makes them look more smaller then La Fleche are really are .. Many French breeds don't have fluff like other breeds in America have.

 

[Pozees]

gjensen, nicely stated. When you said, "It was not long ago when a roasted bird was a luxury item" I remembered all those episodes of old westerns where it was a treat or celebration that got a bird roasted.

I took your point to be that it is reasonable to have different expectations of different breeds, rather than having identical expectations of a wide range of breeds considered to be "heritage" breeds. I agree.

 

[Bluetick340]

  I noted that some gamecock breeders let there stags range with little more than whole corn. They have to work to rustle up what they need. It seams that this is in part for practical reasons, but they also want them to grow out slower and more naturally. There is a belief that this makes for stronger more fit birds in the end. It is hard to argue with the results when you see that vigorous proud cock in good feather.

  Get on you tube and look at some of the game cock breeders videos. They KNOW their lines, where they came from, how they will fight. Ect. They are some sure enough breeders. You don't hear hem talking about crossing lines much.

 

[saladin]

I noted that some gamecock breeders let there stags range with little more than whole corn. They have to work to rustle up what they need. It seams that this is in part for practical reasons, but they also want them to grow out slower and more naturally. There is a belief that this makes for stronger more fit birds in the end. It is hard to argue with the results when you see that vigorous proud cock in good feather.

Get on you tube and look at some of the game cock breeders videos. They KNOW their lines, where they came from, how they will fight. Ect. They are some sure enough breeders. You don't hear hem talking about crossing lines much.

LOL. They cross lines coming and going! As a matter of fact, I'm convinced that's all 99% of them do. Heck, more than half of them couldn't even tell you which cock sired which chicks.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote by gjensen:
So funny that you should say that, because I'm still living "back when" and we always have. I can't remember the last time I bought chicken from a store and I was raised on the seasonal meat harvests. One of those was when the layer flock was spent and turned into provisions. I'm STILL doing that. And you are correct, to me, dual purpose is not so much about the size of the male bird but the size of the female, as this is a bird that is utilized as a meat source when her days of laying are done or if she has been culled for some reason. I've killed and consumed way more hens than cocks in my lifetime, so the definition of dual purpose means the same to me now as it did back then. To be considered dual purpose in my play book, that hen has to lay very well and also have a density of meat that yields big breasts and thighs. That's why I choose a dual purpose breed in the first place.

And you are right...roasting a bird is a luxury here and only for special occasions. You can make the meat go further and last longer if it's in a big pot with other ingredients to make it stretch. That's still important to some people who live frugally and hate wasting food.

Great post, gjensen!!!

 

[WalkingWolf1]

;~)