Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[catdaddyfro]

I know a few people that are producing pretty good birds that get to 5lbs in the 12 wk range without being pushed. If you want to do it, you will. It is just a matter of want to. All of the speculation is just talk. It is just a matter of deciding what you need, getting what you need, and doing what you need to do.

5lb fryers at 12 wks (live weight) is a heck of a lot more economical than 24 wk old roasters.

I would like to try caponizing for the learning experience and just the experience in general. It is not illegal here, and if it was I would still do it if I chose to. I figure that my birds belong to me, and no one else. I will do as I please.

I like to think that I am working to keep or improve the productiveness of my birds. What is most challenging is breeding to a Standard and keeping productive birds. In my thinking, then you have something that is worth something. An accomplishment that is both attractive, healthy, long lived, and productive.

If meat or egg qualities was my only interest, I would not waste my time or money on anything but commercial hybrids. I will never achieve anything more efficient or productive.

I just want to pick the breed that appeals to my tastes, and ideals the most. Then I want to enjoy them and see what I can do with them. When I am watching my birds range, I want to see the best possible examples of that breed on my yard. I want to be proud of them and have accomplished something. I want to improve what I have, and feel like what I have represents the breed well.
I love to see the variety of breeds. The variety of tastes and ideals. I admire what generations of breeders have accomplished. A flock of uniform well bred birds on grass is a pleasure. They are an accomplishment and something of particular value.

When I walk through some one else's poultry yard, I like to admire what they have done and accomplished. Even when their breed is not my style, I can still appreciate the excellence in what is front of me. Well bred animals are accomplishments to be admired. Not anyone can do it.
To me it is kind of like gardening. Some people just have a few tomato plants, and that is how many of us start. If it catches our interest we keep plugging at it. We try things and we fail, but we like doing it so we keep doing it. Some people get good at it over time, and what they accomplish is admirable. If you like that kind of thing, you will never visit and leave without being better for the visit. You always walk away with new ideas and have been bettered by the experience.

I like to see well bred birds. I can enjoy walking a commercial corn field, but I enjoy more walking through the gardens of a master gardener.

good post and info here (i'm out of ovations once again) haven't figured out the alottment system for those yet? BYC?

OK I'll be good now don't want to start the New Year off with a spanking or a tongue lashing

Jeff

 

[catdaddyfro]

If it is possible, it is certainly better. I have been to Dragonlady's place a couple times, and was better for the experience both times. Not only do you enjoy the experience,the person, and the birds . . . you learn a lot to. You get a lot of ideas. There is a lot of smart people doing this.

Thumbs up!

oh yeah here LOL

Jeff

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Caponizing is a no go. Tried that once and was not impressed with the results. Then again they were hatchery RIR. Plus our death rate was a bit higher than I would of liked. I'd have to do some convincing to get my dad to help me again. My big issue with caponizing them is what if I caponize the best bird of the season? Then he would be utterly worthless except obviously as a meat bird. Maybe once I get my birds I could hatch a batch out and half the cockerels could get caponized and the other half not. That I could butcher all of them and compare the results.

Here is my thinking --

None of these breed will have a good FCR. The typical FCR of a heritage breed is 6-10. Even with my production line of light Sussex (that is bred solely for production) only reach 5.5 pounds at 16 weeks but they don't have a lot of meat on them. More than 99% of other heritage breeds at the same age though.

The White Chantecler was developed more as an egg layer the partridge more of a meat bird.
Plymouth rocks - You might be able to find a decent production strain. I know of a fine production strain of barred rocks in BC - they make lovely birds and grow faster than most do to the breeding program.
My experience with Faverolles was dismal - Faverolles that are in NA seem highly inbred and as such are not as productive as they should be
Javas - Never raised those no comments
Sussex - See if you can locate a strain of True North Hatchery's light Sussex - they may be the most productive Light Sussex in North America
Rhode Island Reds - I would be careful never had much luck with RIR in living up to why they became so popular
Dorkings - There is a breeder that has some good white Dorkings on here (Yellow House farm IMSM)


Your best bet maybe to take the fore-mentioned white dorkings and cross them another really productive breed - this will really increase your level of heteros and give you some really nice growing offspring - after all this what farmers did for hundreds of years (except there were no breeds so chickens were just chickens)

Well, here are some of our birds at 6 months:





Here's are a couple of comparison photos between our Dorking and our Ancona:






The idea of keeping two breeds, hatching out your quota for each breed and then hatching out some crosses for larger meat production, is a good one. I bet putting one of your Light Brahma cocks over our Dorking hens would be an interesting project. It would be a terminal cross but an interesting one to watch develop.


I'd say with meat, though, it is important to some keep in mind certain reality checks:

1. Old-fashioned meat expectations were different from today's ideas. It is imperative to remember that these birds were to food source of a time period. To understand them, go to that time period. Read cookbooks that were written with heritage chicks in mind, and you'll discover facts. First of all, the designations: broiler, fryer, roaster, and fowl, actually meant something. Many chicken recipes where written for 2.5/lb. birds, i.e. fryers. Most roasting recipes aim at 3.5/lb roasters, what I would estimate to be males killed under 22-weeks old. A heritage chicken cookery has nothing to do with a broiler industry cookery, if you cannot separate the two in your mind, you will not be satisfied with heritage birds. May they never look like modern broilers!

2. We slaughter at 24-26 weeks old. We do an old-fashioned slow roast in a Dutch-oven, and it's delicious--absolutely elegant. We served them for two Christmas parties this year, and they're exquisite fare. Our birds probably average 4-ish/lbs. dressed, maybe a little more. I imagine over time they'll get a bit larger, but larger meat isn't necessarily better meat. There is the threat with larger that it will become too stringing. Our birds right now are right on the mark. My experience is that most people establish some sort of weight demand before they are proficient in cooking heritage meat, before they understand the various traditional preparations and how the meat is allotted out in appropriate portions. Whatever their criteria are, they are not the demands of the kitchen. If one considers my #1, one can imagine why "egg-breeds" actually can offer quite a bit to the table. We eat Anconas all the time. They make great little spatchcocks for the summer grill.

3. If one wants ready made meat, go commercial stock. Your stock will only be as good as you're ready or willing to make it. It's all about individual breeder responsibility. If you want good birds, breed good birds. However, to do this you must submit to the strictures that lead to good birds. One idea in your particular case might be to stick with what you have. Ditch the Buffs, and stick with the Lights. Use all of the floor space you would have dedicated to a second breed to your Light Brahmas, and then raise out a doubly strong number. Weigh them out at 24 weeks keep the best weight and type, and with you're increased numbers you should also be able to consider color; then put all of the rest on fat-n-finish and slaughter at 26 weeks. If you do this for four or five years, you ill have outstandingly different birds at that point than you do now.

4. "Feed conversion" simply isn't a breeding concern that can be effectively addressed by the vast majority of small-scale breeders. Given, your breed of choice is an eater, but actual selection for feed conversion is a whole system. If feed conversion is a true concern, then use corporate chicken stock.

 

[Piet]

I have my showbirds for layers, because they lay real well and for meat we run 100 broilers. 8 weeks to butcher a great carcass there is nothing that compares to it. The farmers run only 38 days on them now, but we take a bit more time and try to get them to graze a bit more also. Those We take to the hutterites and they butcher for 4 bucks a bird and have a gov. Inspection tag. That we we can sell some also. Pure breed culls I do myself and mostly boil for soup. Piet

 

[gjensen]

Well, here are some of our birds at 6 months:





Here's are a couple of comparison photos between our Dorking and our Ancona:






The idea of keeping two breeds, hatching out your quota for each breed and then hatching out some crosses for larger meat production, is a good one. I bet putting one of your Light Brahma cocks over our Dorking hens would be an interesting project. It would be a terminal cross but an interesting one to watch develop.


I'd say with meat, though, it is important to some keep in mind certain reality checks:

1. Old-fashioned meat expectations were different from today's ideas. It is imperative to remember that these birds were to food source of a time period. To understand them, go to that time period. Read cookbooks that were written with heritage chicks in mind, and you'll discover facts. First of all, the designations: broiler, fryer, roaster, and fowl, actually meant something. Many chicken recipes where written for 2.5/lb. birds, i.e. fryers. Most roasting recipes aim at 3.5/lb roasters, what I would estimate to be males killed under 22-weeks old. A heritage chicken cookery has nothing to do with a broiler industry cookery, if you cannot separate the two in your mind, you will not be satisfied with heritage birds. May they never look like modern broilers!

2. We slaughter at 24-26 weeks old. We do an old-fashioned slow roast in a Dutch-oven, and it's delicious--absolutely elegant. We served them for two Christmas parties this year, and they're exquisite fare. Our birds probably average 4-ish/lbs. dressed, maybe a little more. I imagine over time they'll get a bit larger, but larger meat isn't necessarily better meat. There is the threat with larger that it will become too stringing. Our birds right now are right on the mark. My experience is that most people establish some sort of weight demand before they are proficient in cooking heritage meat, before they understand the various traditional preparations and how the meat is allotted out in appropriate portions. Whatever their criteria are, they are not the demands of the kitchen. If one considers my #1, one can imagine why "egg-breeds" actually can offer quite a bit to the table. We eat Anconas all the time. They make great little spatchcocks for the summer grill.

3. If one wants ready made meat, go commercial stock. Your stock will only be as good as you're ready or willing to make it. It's all about individual breeder responsibility. If you want good birds, breed good birds. However, to do this you must submit to the strictures that lead to good birds. One idea in your particular case might be to stick with what you have. Ditch the Buffs, and stick with the Lights. Use all of the floor space you would have dedicated to a second breed to your Light Brahmas, and then raise out a doubly strong number. Weigh them out at 24 weeks keep the best weight and type, and with you're increased numbers you should also be able to consider color; then put all of the rest on fat-n-finish and slaughter at 26 weeks. If you do this for four or five years, you ill have outstandingly different birds at that point than you do now.

4. "Feed conversion" simply isn't a breeding concern that can be effectively addressed by the vast majority of small-scale breeders. Given, your breed of choice is an eater, but actual selection for feed conversion is a whole system. If feed conversion is a true concern, then use corporate chicken stock.

Anyone interested in raising their own poultry meat should listen carefully to what this guy says. He practices what he preaches. That is more than most.

YH, I prefer them younger if possible. That is probably as much to do with my ability as practical economics. Then again, I am raising different birds.

I admire they way you do it.

 

[ocap]

I have my showbirds for layers, because they lay real well and for meat we run 100 broilers. 8 weeks to butcher a great carcass there is nothing that compares to it. The farmers run only 38 days on them now, but we take a bit more time and try to get them to graze a bit more also. Those We take to the hutterites and they butcher for 4 bucks a bird and have a gov. Inspection tag. That we we can sell some also. Pure breed culls I do myself and mostly boil for soup. Piet

I found a processor in eastern Kansas, USA that stamps the packaged bird USDA. Worth a drive if you want to sell your produce.

Always fun to read the posts by "Yellow House Farm", I keep coming back to BYC because of posts that I can apply to my flock.

reducing my flock to two breeds this spring and if my numbers are satisfactory in Buff Brahma with only one pullet then 2015 will have only one breed. Incubator gets powered up in six weeks. Hoping my (June) pullet is laying by mid February. 5 Silkie pullets are wanting some fertile eggs!

 

[ronott1]

good post and info here (i'm out of ovations once again) haven't figured out the alottment system for those yet? BYC?

OK I'll be good now don't want to start the New Year off with a spanking or a tongue lashing

Jeff

Wait, you can run out of Ovations?

 

[Beekissed]

Wait, you can run out of Ovations?

Yep. I try to use mine up each day on good posts but sometimes I run dreadfully short and can't give the proper ovations.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

YH, I prefer them younger if possible. That is probably as much to do with my ability as practical economics. Then again, I am raising different birds.

I admire they way you do it.

I would imagine that your Catalana program runs a lot like our Ancona program

; what I was addressing above favored more a Dorking approach to things.

The reality is that, once one becomes intimately acquainted with one's stock, one can cull all along the way, thus obtaining, broilers, then fryers, then roasters, and finally fowl. We cull out Anconas more heavily up front, but I retain Dorkings longer that, were they Anconas, wouldn't make the cut, but that's just to put size on them.

Piet's point, is exactly what I was getting at. If the modern broiler is what you actually want, then raise modern broilers and be done with it. We raise and consume Dorkings because it is actually what we want to eat. I prefer the richer flavors and more toothsome meat, which are the result of a longer growing time and stronger muscles. You will establish your actual, real-time, personal cookery around the meat that is in your freezer. Raise meat that corresponds to your culinary goals and expectations, and/or have culinary goals and expectations that match the meat you want to raise. Then, once you have that meat, cook that meat in an appropriate fashion. The results will be delicious. Difficulties disappointment arise when we place the expectations of oranges on the flesh of an apple.

 

[bnjrob]

The idea of keeping two breeds, hatching out your quota for each breed and then hatching out some crosses for larger meat production, is a good one. I bet putting one of your Light Brahma cocks over our Dorking hens would be an interesting project. It would be a terminal cross but an interesting one to watch develop.


I'd say with meat, though, it is important to some keep in mind certain reality checks:

1. Old-fashioned meat expectations were different from today's ideas. It is imperative to remember that these birds were to food source of a time period. To understand them, go to that time period. Read cookbooks that were written with heritage chicks in mind, and you'll discover facts. First of all, the designations: broiler, fryer, roaster, and fowl, actually meant something. Many chicken recipes where written for 2.5/lb. birds, i.e. fryers. Most roasting recipes aim at 3.5/lb roasters, what I would estimate to be males killed under 22-weeks old. A heritage chicken cookery has nothing to do with a broiler industry cookery, if you cannot separate the two in your mind, you will not be satisfied with heritage birds. May they never look like modern broilers!

2. We slaughter at 24-26 weeks old. We do an old-fashioned slow roast in a Dutch-oven, and it's delicious--absolutely elegant. We served them for two Christmas parties this year, and they're exquisite fare. Our birds probably average 4-ish/lbs. dressed, maybe a little more. I imagine over time they'll get a bit larger, but larger meat isn't necessarily better meat. There is the threat with larger that it will become too stringing. Our birds right now are right on the mark. My experience is that most people establish some sort of weight demand before they are proficient in cooking heritage meat, before they understand the various traditional preparations and how the meat is allotted out in appropriate portions. Whatever their criteria are, they are not the demands of the kitchen. If one considers my #1, one can imagine why "egg-breeds" actually can offer quite a bit to the table. We eat Anconas all the time. They make great little spatchcocks for the summer grill.

3. If one wants ready made meat, go commercial stock. Your stock will only be as good as you're ready or willing to make it. It's all about individual breeder responsibility. If you want good birds, breed good birds. However, to do this you must submit to the strictures that lead to good birds. One idea in your particular case might be to stick with what you have. Ditch the Buffs, and stick with the Lights. Use all of the floor space you would have dedicated to a second breed to your Light Brahmas, and then raise out a doubly strong number. Weigh them out at 24 weeks keep the best weight and type, and with you're increased numbers you should also be able to consider color; then put all of the rest on fat-n-finish and slaughter at 26 weeks. If you do this for four or five years, you ill have outstandingly different birds at that point than you do now.

4. "Feed conversion" simply isn't a breeding concern that can be effectively addressed by the vast majority of small-scale breeders. Given, your breed of choice is an eater, but actual selection for feed conversion is a whole system. If feed conversion is a true concern, then use corporate chicken stock.

EXACTLY! I read a lot of antique cookbooks and am even cooking from them - particularly the cookbooks from the mid 1700s through the 1800s. Their idea of meat is definitely different from ours. Many of the cookbooks from this time period include things like the weight of a bird to be used in the recipe, how to raise the meat, how to slaughter the meat and how to cut it up and use it. And they used everything, not just a small portion of the animal that they butchered.

They didn't go through the drive thru and ask them to Super Size their chickens.