Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[RiddleMe]

 
Hi Lacey Blues,
 You are  right.
 I just want to take time to publically thank hellbender who took time to talk to me over the phone tonight. I knew there was something wrong with this mash in spite of everyone's help. Turns out, it was way too rich and would have scoured the birds. hellbender had me mix it 1 part mash to 2 parts of my regular crumble. Consistency like a graham cracker crust which you can make a ball in your had and it will hold its shape.  Then I warmed it and the birds are very happy.
 This list is a great family!
 Best,
 Karen in 3 degree  western PA

Karen, Your birds will be better able to withstand real cold if they go to roost with crops full of whole grains. Digesting whole grains generates much more heat than digesting mash.My Orps get rolled oats, BOSS,and wild bird seed at 4:00 pm on really cold nights. They have Flockraiser,24/7 , but it won't keep them as warm.Herb Holtz taught me that 35+ years ago. He lived in Iowa.

Karen, I would agree with this. We had some abnormally cold weather a few weeks ago, multiple nights in the negatives with our coldest reaching -27 (normally a really cold night for us might be single digits, on the positive side of 0). I actually had some birds that were molting too. Gave everyone evening snacks of whole grains and BOSS and they were all fine. I actually set up a heat lamp for the coldest night but when I checked on them after dark they were all settled as far from it as they could get so I turned it off.

 

[fowlman01]

Karen, Your birds will be better able to withstand real cold if they go to roost with crops full of whole grains. Digesting whole grains generates much more heat than digesting mash.My Orps get rolled oats, BOSS,and wild bird seed at 4:00 pm on really cold nights. They have Flockraiser,24/7 , but it won't keep them as warm.Herb Holtz taught me that 35+ years ago. He lived in Iowa.

This is what us old timers have done for years. It used to be common knowledge before the internet. lol

Walt

 

[Anna6]

I'm doubting you will find any heritage blood line birds from a hatchery source~only heritage type breeds~ so you might focus on local breeders in your area for getting started on breeds you choose. It's a good idea to stick with breeds that do well in your climate so you aren't fighting an uphill battle from the beginning.

Hmmm I was wondering about that. I want to learn as much as I can before setting up. That is why I tapped into this thread. thank you for any help you can give. Sorry I realize it doesn't show where I am. I need to figure how to have that go with the avatar. We are in north San Diego county SoCal.

 

[Anna6]

Where are you located?

We are in San Diego County SoCal.

 

[brahmabreeder]

Just out of curiosity how much corn is too much corn for white birds? Would like to help them stay warm but will explore other options if they will have feather 'damage' from the corn.

 

[lawatt]

Campines in general are in a state of disrepair. They are in definite need of breeders that are willing to work with them on a long-term basis. I would definitely follow BGMatt's advice and be in touch with Wisher1000. It's going to take a village.

My quick impression is that Golden Campines are in a better state than Silver Campines. Using the se-lined nature of "silver" one can access the Golden Campine genes to infuse the Silver Campine genes with vigor and reproducibility.

I am just getting started this year with a trio of silver campines, hoping to get some additional chicks from Urch this spring. there is a campine thread here on BYC, which has been very supportive and helpful so far!

 

[Yellow House Farm]

While I don't always agree with Joel Salatin - I keep an open mind and usually like listen to the lectures he presents just so I can have a wide mindset - After all I come from a family where my mother works with commerical farmers of all types, but I have a small farm while in school.

"All form fallows function" - I could not agree more with this and Form does fallow function - it is not the other way around

I tried to use the embed feature however it won't let me embed at a certain time. So here is the link and it will take you to the ~16 min mark for whomever is interested

Interesting, it's fun when we ride the wave of being "right". Lord knows I've done it more than once. However, the problem with his sarcasm is that it comes from someone who's not part of this community. So, half knowledge or half experience is only so valuable. Listening to him, he doesn't say anything new or interesting. If he doesn't appreciate the Standard or the idea of standard-zed breeding, it doesn't change its outstanding importance in the development and preservation of breeds.

It also doesn't change the fact that I've never met a single "farmer" with the knowledge base concerning chickens that is found in the general crowd of an APA/ABA show hall. APA folks are about chickens; farmers are about products.

When I was a market farmer, I was constantly selecting for productivity above all else. I ran the bulk of our egg production on our flock of Anconas, and sold a lot of eggs. However, over time I became interested in returning to teaching. This happened to coincide with a growing frustration in me that my chickens were ugly and asymmetrical birds. I was often jealous of the beautiful standard-bred stock I'd see at the poultry shows I frequented. I wanted chickens that were worthy of art. Now, of course I had been using my Standard before, but I was favoring function over form when it came down to it.

Still, things change. I'm not a market farmer any longer. I don't have to ring every little last egg out of my birds to make the mortgage. I don't actually care if they're the single most productive flock in the region or not. To some that might sound blasphemous, but I've put more time into actually breeding productive chickens than most anyone I've met, and as a farmer in the region I know a lot of people. With only one exception, those who are doing any volume in sales buy in hatchery stock. They're egg focused, not chicken focused. They know jack about their chickens. Sure they can keep them alive and healthy. They collect a good egg, and many of them can slaughter. However, none of them know about their chickens qua chickens in the way that I do. I give talks in New England at which I teach people how to breed for productivity, but one of the things I also invite people to do is actually start to appreciate their chickens qua chickens.

Now, I breed to the Standard first and foremost. Hold the phone, you say. That must mean that I ignore production. Absolutely not. However, I consider it as part of the whole and not as the firt and foremost concern. If one breeds properly to the Standard, one will raise birds that are productive. Chances are, though, they're not going to be the highest producers. To get there, function must be selected above all else, and really trap-nesting needs to be adopted. However, my birds are much more beautiful and balanced. Now, of course here, we're talking eggs. My meat qualities do nothing but improve. Moreover, because I assess birds a specific ages, I end up retaining those that mature more quickly and put size on more efficiently then their confreres. It's not an all or nothing choice.

Often beginners ask, "what's the best layer?" Frankly, who cares, most people don't actually need the best layer. Most people end up inundated with eggs for which they're running out of uses. Most homesteading needs are well-met by a properly standard-bred fowl, and if selection is maintained at certain ages, basically good, homestead-appropriate productivity can be maintained in those strains.

Then, however, there is the value of beauty. Our culture doesn't often know how to address that. We're a culture that praises function and often scorns beauty as frivolous. Fortunately, we have our older, ancestral cultures to remind us of the great social, psychological, and spiritual benefit of beauty. There is great personal benefit that comes from beauty and the enjoyment of beauty. Now that I'm not pushing for every last egg, I am free to enjoy that, and I wouldn't give it up for a few extra dozen eggs, because that's the difference we're talking about. We're not talking about 20 eggs versus 300 eggs. Unless one is working with industrial layers, at which point the conversation is over anyways because that's a completely different game, the farmer insistent on function over form with the typical infrastructural capacities of a small-scale operation, who also wants to do it with pure-bred fowl, is going to, perhaps, with skill and attention, glean a few extra dozens per bird per annum. His birds will, however, look like hatchery rats. No thank you.

Some might not be sensitive to that. Some might not see the value. That's cool. I certainly went through a personal evolution and arrived here. Who knows where others will arrive. What isn't useful, though, is prevarication and fanciful non-realities. People who imagine themselves to be great breeders of productive fowl tend also to be rather young in chickens. There are breeder fowl, hatchery fowl, and corporate fowl. Corporate fowl are corporate fowl, they are backed by amazing science to be what they are, and the attainment of those levels of production is closed to the layman. What most people who boast about breeding for production are really doing is the reinvention of hatchery fowl. Cool, if that makes them happy, but that's not what this thread is about.

This thread has, since its inception been about the promotion of standard-bred heritage fowl, finding good stock, learning how to breed it to the Standard, learning to show, learning the ins and outs of various breeds and their genetics. That Joel Salatin might not find that valuable is not actually all that important or relevant. That someone might not appreciate what this thread is about is certainly alright: "different strokes for different folks". That "form follows function" in poultry be thought of as a rule is a fantasy. Since 1874 the Standard of perfection has been the driving force in breed development and certainly of maintenance. People fantasize about old-fashioned farming. The culture around old-fashioned farming was part of old-fashioned culture, and that culture led to the APA and the Standard of Perfection as well as other breed organizations. It also led to a whole lot of unproductive mongrels and poverty-drenched subsistence living about which we like to create romanticized stories. Farming advancements and specialization led to the development of highly productive strains in a few breeds, and everything else ceased being considered a "serious" farming venture. Of course, farmers ended up being culled just as ruthlessly leading to the development of highly productive "farmers", and everyone else ceased being considered "serious" farmers. Good-bye American small-scale farms.

Barring the few "breeds" that are maintained by the industry. All the breeds we have have been preserved, maintained, and promoted by two forces: hatcheries and APA/ABA culture. "Practical", "form follows function" farmers have done jack for chickens. Poultry-wise they have preserved practically nothing for posterity and will not be the force that carries these breeds into the future.


When I watched Food, Inc, Salatin was slaughtering Cornish X's...just like Perdue.

 

[fowlman01]

Just out of curiosity how much corn is too much corn for white birds? Would like to help them stay warm but will explore other options if they will have feather 'damage' from the corn.

If you have a dominant white it should be no problem what amount (considering nutrition). If it is recessive it will get a yellow cast to the male feathers. Hackle and saddle. Keeping them out of direct sun will help with that.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I am just getting started this year with a trio of silver campines, hoping to get some additional chicks from Urch this spring. there is a campine thread here on BYC, which has been very supportive and helpful so far!

Contact me by PM I think I can come by your place in early Feb.

w.

 

[fowlman01]

Interesting, it's fun when we ride the wave of being "right". Lord knows I've done it more than once. However, the problem with his sarcasm is that it comes from someone who's not part of this community. So, half knowledge or half experience is only so valuable. Listening to him, he doesn't say anything new or interesting. If he doesn't appreciate the Standard or the idea of standard-zed breeding, it doesn't change its outstanding importance in the development and preservation of breeds.

It also doesn't change the fact that I've never met a single "farmer" with the knowledge base concerning chickens that is found in the general crowd of an APA/ABA show hall. APA folks are about chickens; farmers are about products.

When I was a market farmer, I was constantly selecting for productivity above all else. I ran the bulk of our egg production on our flock of Anconas, and sold a lot of eggs. However, over time I became interested in returning to teaching. This happened to coincide with a growing frustration in me that my chickens were ugly and asymmetrical birds. I was often jealous of the beautiful standard-bred stock I'd see at the poultry shows I frequented. I wanted chickens that were worthy of art. Now, of course I had been using my Standard before, but I was favoring function over form when it came down to it.

Still, things change. I'm not a market farmer any longer. I don't have to ring every little last egg out of my birds to make the mortgage. I don't actually care if they're the single most productive flock in the region or not. To some that might sound blasphemous, but I've put more time into actually breeding productive chickens than most anyone I've met, and as a farmer in the region I know a lot of people. With only one exception, those who are doing any volume in sales buy in hatchery stock. They're egg focused, not chicken focused. They know jack about their chickens. Sure they can keep them alive and healthy. They collect a good egg, and many of them can slaughter. However, none of them know about their chickens qua chickens in the way that I do. I give talks all over New England at which I teach people how to breed for productivity, but one of the things I also invite people to do is actually start to appreciate their chickens qua chickens.

Now, I breed to the Standard first and foremost. Hold the phone, you say. That must mean that I ignore production. Absolutely not. However, I consider it as part of the whole and not as the firt and foremost concern. If one breeds properly to the Standard, one will raise birds that are productive. Chances are, though, they're not going to be the highest producers. To get there, function must be selected above all else, and really trap-nesting needs to be adopted. However, my birds are much more beautiful and balanced. Now, of course here, we're talking eggs. My meat qualities do nothing but improve. Moreover, because I assess birds a specific ages, I end up retaining those that mature more quickly and put size on more efficiently then their confreres. It's not an all or nothing choice.

Often beginners ask, "what's the best layer?" Frankly, who cares, most people don't actually need the best layer. Most people end up inundated with eggs for which they're running out of uses. Most homesteading needs are well-met by a properly standard-bred fowl, and if selection is maintained at certain ages, basically good, homestead-appropriate productivity can be maintained in those strains.

Then, however, there is the value of beauty. Our culture doesn't often know how to address that. We're a culture that praises function and often scorns beauty as frivolous. Fortunately, we have our older, ancestral cultures to remind us of the great social, psychological, and spiritual benefit of beauty. There is great personal benefit that comes from beauty and the enjoyment of beauty. Now that I'm not pushing for every last egg, I am free to enjoy that, and I wouldn't give it up for a few extra dozen eggs, because that's the difference we're talking about. We're not talking about 20 eggs versus 300 eggs. Unless one is working with industrial layers, at which point the conversation is over anyways because that's a completely different game, the farmer insistent on function over form with the typical infrastructural capacities of a small-scale operation, who also wants to do it with pure-bred fowl, is going to, perhaps, with skill and attention, glean a few extra dozens per bird per annum. His birds will, however, look like hatchery rats. No thank you.

Some might not be sensitive to that. Some might not see the value. That's cool. I certainly went through a personal evolution and arrived here. Who knows where others will arrive. What isn't useful, though, is prevarication and fanciful non-realities. People who imagine themselves to be great breeders of productive fowl tend also to be rather young in chickens. There are breeder fowl, hatchery fowl, and corporate fowl. Corporate fowl are corporate fowl, they are backed by amazing science to be what they are, and the attainment of those levels of production is closed to the layman. What most people who boast about breeding for production are really doing is the reinvention of hatchery fowl. Cool, if that makes them happy, but that's not what this thread is about.

This thread has, since its inception been about the promotion of standard-bred heritage fowl, finding good stock, learning how to breed it to the Standard, learning to show, learning the ins and outs of various breeds and their genetics. That Joel Salatin might not find that valuable is not actually all that important or relevant. That someone might not appreciate what this thread is about is certainly alright: "different strokes for different folks". That "form follows function" in poultry be thought of as a rule is a fantasy. Since 1874 the Standard of perfection has been the driving force in breed development and certainly of maintenance. People fantasize about old-fashioned farming. The culture around old-fashioned farming was part of old-fashioned culture, and that culture led to the APA and the Standard of Perfection as well as other breed organizations. It also led to a whole lot of unproductive mongrels and poverty-drenched subsistence living about which we like to create romanticized stories. Farming advancements and specialization led to the development of highly productive strains in a few breeds, and everything else ceased being considered a "serious" farming venture. Of course, farmers ended up being culled just as ruthlessly leading to the development of highly productive "farmers", and everyone ceased being considered "serious" farmers. Good-bye American small-scale farms.

Barring the few "breeds" that are maintained by the industry. All the breeds we have been preserved, maintained, and promoted by two forces: hatcheries and APA/ABA culture. "Practical", "function follows form" farmers have done jack for chickens. They have preserved practically nothing for posterity and will not be the force that carries these breeds into the future.


When I watched Food, Inc, Salatin was slaughtering Cornish X's...just like Perdue.

another great post by Joe.

Walt