Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Arielle]

Quote: She was kept for breeding only after earning her elite title in Holland-- thru the mare test in Deurne she earned keur. Getting her bred her has been a challenge. One foal by FLeminge-- sold, started in dressage and sent to FL as a hunter; sold the Orame as a hunter, have a coming 3 yr old by Hann/Old Havard that is for sale. THe Nimmedor is a gem of a mare-- one of his last foal crops.

------------------

As I looked at my rooster limping this morning I thought how valueable frozen semen is; always available even if the boy is not. None left from Nimmedor; but he has a great number of sons, including the superstar Heartbreaker.

 

[Arielle]

Quote:
True. I am grateful it is not the 1800s every time the furnace comes on in the middle of the night all by itself. And hot water comes out of the tap. And the toilet (indoors!) actually flushes. Which gets me up to what, maybe 1914?

But I digress.

You are right, you could use sperm from a superior cock from halfway around the world if that is what you want to do. And in the case of preserving - or reviving - a run down or endangered breed that might be necessary. The sperm bank project Piet mentioned is a good example of saving sperm from different breeds for preservation of those breeds.

On the other hand, using artificial insemination techniques on a regular basis - routinely importing the genetic material from elsewhere - runs the risk of eventually weakening a flock to the point where the local flock cannot be sustained without using the artificial procedures. Which is antithetical to the whole concept of most heritage poultry. It's not wrong. It's just something other than what most people think of as "heritage."

When I think of heritage birds I think of old breeds that are smart, good foragers, wary of predators, and capable of reproducing enough to maintain or increase the flock size while providing sufficient eggs and/or meat. If they happen to look like the pictures in the Standard at the same time, that's even better. That's what I'm aiming for. But that's just me.

Sarah
Sarah, Respectfully. I cannot see where a flock would be weakened in any fashion. If anything genetically improved.. Top rams in Australia ( merinos) can sell for $50,000-- you can bet their semen is collected and stored and sold world wide. THe horse industry is world wide and semen is shipped all over and the result is better quality performance horses. I can pick a stallion to better match a mare-- single mating.

We imported the german new hampshire-- because from all I read here on this thread the german bird is far superior to the american bred. And is winning at the shows. Much of the world is breeding chickens, and while the SOPs don't always match up, the genetics are there. THe Europeans are way ahead of us in the breeding game IMO, based on what I have seen produced in the horse industry.

 

[fowlman01]

Very well, I'll be there Saturday also, who will I be looking up for?

You will be looking for Walt Leonard. When it is closer PM me and I will give you my cell phone #

Walt

 

[thedragonlady]

True. I am grateful it is not the 1800s every time the furnace comes on in the middle of the night all by itself. And hot water comes out of the tap. And the toilet (indoors!) actually flushes. Which gets me up to what, maybe 1914?

But I digress.

You are right, you could use sperm from a superior cock from halfway around the world if that is what you want to do. And in the case of preserving - or reviving - a run down or endangered breed that might be necessary. The sperm bank project Piet mentioned is a good example of saving sperm from different breeds for preservation of those breeds.

On the other hand, using artificial insemination techniques on a regular basis - routinely importing the genetic material from elsewhere - runs the risk of eventually weakening a flock to the point where the local flock cannot be sustained without using the artificial procedures. Which is antithetical to the whole concept of most heritage poultry. It's not wrong. It's just something other than what most people think of as "heritage."

When I think of heritage birds I think of old breeds that are smart, good foragers, wary of predators, and capable of reproducing enough to maintain or increase the flock size while providing sufficient eggs and/or meat. If they happen to look like the pictures in the Standard at the same time, that's even better. That's what I'm aiming for. But that's just me.

Sarah

I A-Id my Silkies for years. It was the only way to keep my females in top condition. I always put young cockerels in with old retired ladies to check for their desire to breed, and fertility BEFORE using AI. Too many Silkie males are simply not interested in breeding, and the fancier they are , the greater the problem seems to be. This is probably due to selection for feminine characteristics.

I saw the opposite problem in Mastiffs. The huge, doggy looking females that were very competitive in the show ring, rarely were good mothers, and some never bred. Again I believe due to selection for male traits.

On old Irish horseman gave me a great piece of advice about selecting breeders...."If you have to open the box door to see what sex it is; don't bother."

A-I is a wonderful tool in other species. As long as it is sensibly used , I don't think it would do anything to harm our birds. Just think of the possibilities for improvement , if chicken semen could be shipped.

 

[3riverschick]

Hellbender how are you doing water-wise? I saw the piece on the disastrous chemical spill.
Good thing you still have snow to feed your birds!
Best,
Karen

 

[gjensen]

I had read the standard Cochin originally was known for being a wonderful meat bird and an excellent layer of large brown eggs but that when the bird came to the US that all changed. Anyone doing this bird as a Heritage breed and, if so, are they trying to breed for that meat and egg quality it originally possessed?

Early, early on . . . they were much different than they are now. Not even recognizable. They were not nearly as profusely feathered, just soft feathered and were more of a general dual purpose bird. They are strictly an ornamental now.
Now you can appreciate the Cochin in what they contributed to other breeds.

The breed that I am toying with, the Catalana, was based on land race fowl and the Cochin of the time. Maybe more like what was called Cochin Chinas (?).

The change they have made is dramatic. Try to find some early sketches of them and you will see what I am saying. It was not just a US change either. It was a European thing also. The soft feather seamed to be one of the features that was appreciated about them, and it grew and grew.

Someone like Saladin might have something to offer on this topic. Someone with a better historical perspective. I have come to my conclusions based on pictures, and little pieces that I have picked up on.

 

[gjensen]

I think the web is much better for rare breeds, but the mainstream breeders/exhibitors are hard to find. Contacting judges was a great move on your part. It is even very difficult to get a picture that shows a decent specimen of most breeds including common breeds unless it has been ripped of from a Standard. There is a lot of junk online.

w.

I want to make sure that it is understood that I did not disagree. Your advice about getting involved and becoming more familiar with what is out there is the best possible advice. Especially when compared to sorting through the internet chatter, or sorting through local backyard propagators.


I only wanted to add that in some particular cases technology is helpful in locating hard to find birds. That point was directed to any possible reader that had went through the motions and had repeatedly come to dead ends. It was made to say that today . . . If it is there, it could be found.

I also want to add that it is a privilege for all of us to have people like Walt to contribute. It can be difficult for new people like myself to sort through the clutter, and easy to get swept into believing all kinds of things. I think that I pick up on something from nearly every post.

 

[3riverschick]

Sarah, Respectfully. I cannot see where a flock would be weakened in any fashion. If anything genetically improved.. Top rams in Australia ( merinos) can sell for $50,000-- you can bet their semen is collected and stored and sold world wide. THe horse industry is world wide and semen is shipped all over and the result is better quality performance horses. I can pick a stallion to better match a mare-- single mating.

We imported the german new hampshire-- because from all I read here on this thread the german bird is far superior to the american bred. And is winning at the shows. Much of the world is breeding chickens, and while the SOPs don't always match up, the genetics are there. THe Europeans are way ahead of us in the breeding game IMO, based on what I have seen produced in the horse industry.

Which brings me to some exciting news. I found out last night on another BYC thread Greenfire Farms
was explaining they had imported Light Sussex from Europe in 2013. They are from the Swedish National
Champions. GF has eggs in the incubator now. This is exciting news. I can' wait to see pics of the birds.
Best Regards,
Karen

 

[capayvalleychick]

I also want to add that it is a privilege for all of us to have people like Walt to contribute. It can be difficult for new people like myself to sort through the clutter, and easy to get swept into believing all kinds of things.

X2

 

[hellbender]

Hellbender how are you doing water-wise? I saw the piece on the disastrous chemical spill.
Good thing you still have snow to feed your birds!
Best,
Karen

We're not close to that area and shouldn't be affected in any way. There is always something bad happening to the environment.

All of the farm's water is supplied by an artesian well that has been there for over a hundred years. Great water and never goes dry or as far as we can tell...

never even been low. The pressure is great.

Thanks for asking!