Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[Beekissed]

We are assuming that the bird that started the conversation was in fact killed by cocci. I agree that may be most likely, but you can't positively tell without cutting the intestines open. Often a bird that is burdened by cocci can be killed by a co infection. Other gut diseases can cause similar symptoms. There is somewhere around a dozen species of cocci that can infect chickens. A few are the most significant.

Chickens can develop resistance if they are exposed at low levels. High levels exist where many birds have been concentrated over a period of time. Warm damp conditions can create conditions for a population explosion, overwhelming even adult birds that have been exposed prior. These same conditions can cause other pathogens to thrive, so often the birds are burdened by more than one thing.
Adult birds that have never been exposed to it, and are suddenly exposed to higher numbers can succumb to cocci.

Chicks are especially vulnerable because there is no acquired immunity, they are concentrated in a warm space, and possibly a humid environment. The conditions could be ripe for a population explosion.

Management is the best tool against cocci. Generally speaking adults that have been exposed to it before are fine if the bedding and grounds is kept in good shape.

Chicks that are provided clean bedding, in clean brooders, the bedding is well maintained, the humidity kept low, and are not overcrowded, are not as likely to suffer an outbreak. The best possible management does not eliminate the possibility so many use medicated starter.

Cocci can become drug resistant, so management is the best first option. I will use medicated starter when I need to. I assume at some point that I will.

You are most likely to have a problem when introducing new birds that have never been exposed to what you have on your yard, the birds have weak immune systems, or management is poor.

I'll add to that...the walls of intestines are complex and are not just a blank slate where you will either get coccidia or will not according to the numbers present in the animal's environment. There are other microorganisms at work that can help inhibit an overgrowth of coccidia merely be having a stronger colonization in the walls of the intestine and their metabolism actually secretes chemicals that inhibit the reproduction of coccidia, therefor preventing an overgrowth of the protozoa internally. Keeping a balance in those bowel bacteria is key to it all, for if you have balance internally your birds can withstand some levels of external imbalance. A healthy colonized bowel is a big part of a bird's immune system that many overlook and can protect them from so many things. What few realize is that this healthy culture also produces proteins and B complex vitamins, increases absorption of key nutrients and even discourages overgrowth of parasites by making the bowel an inhospitable pH for their existence.

To have complete protection, one must have balance inside and outside with good cultures in both areas. Overstocked soils that are overloaded with nitrogen and are impacted and cannot be cleansed by the rains are hard to establish with a healthy culture and insect life that could inhibit the overgrowth of coccidia. It's not just damp and steamy environments that produce this overgrowth~though they are more prone~ but an imbalance in the soil life itself by poor drainage, over stocking, compact soils and never any attempts to correct the condition of these soils. They are just a petri dish for the wrong kinds of organisms to take hold and thrive, but are not ideal for the healthy ones that can keep the bad ones in check.

This is why some have taken a more proactive approach to livestock feeding by introducing some prebiotic and probiotic cultures into their intestines...and the commercial feed companies are also adding these things now as well.

Among the huge list of type of bacillus found in lactobacillus cultures, one in particular grabs my interest and is applicable here~Pediococcus acidilactici

Pediococcus acidilactici can function as immune modulators. Animals fed with P. acidilactici have shown enhanced immune responses against infectious coccidioidal diseases.

Pediococcus acidilactici is also known to prevent colonization of the small intestine by pathogens like Shigella, Salmonella, Clostridium difficile and Escherichia coli among small animals.

Pediococcus acidilactici has not been stated in any literature to have toxic effects. Another potential benefit of using them as Probiotics is their use as alternative medicines against infectious parasitic pathogens like Eimeria* in broiler-chicken [6].

in livestock and wild animals, infects mainly the cells of the digestive tract, although it also attacks cells of the liver and the bile duct. Symptoms of infection are diarrhea, weight loss, and general weakness. Eimeria is characterized by spore cases that contain four spores, each with two infective sporozoites. Among the common pathogenic species are E. necatrix and E. tenella (in poultry); E. stiedae (in rabbits); and E. bovis, E. ellipsoidalis, and E. zuernii (in cattle).

A healthy intestine is good for animal and human alike and is the very basic and most urgent place to start if one is going to improve overall flock health and protect them from disease transmission. Using meds is like putting a band aid on a wound that may occur again the next time one is near the dangerous object. It's best to build a guard against a dangerous object so that one never gets that wound in the first place.

 

[gjensen]

I like that Bee.

 

[NanaKat]

Good discussion.

Three cock choices from the 2013 hatch for the Columbian Wyandotte pen this year...

I like this one best: 11 month old cockerel with nice neat comb and wattles with fine texture, good leg color, compact tail, full breast with good spacing on legs.



2nd choice 14 month old cock. His comb is thicker and wider, but follows the head well. Tail is a little longer..broad back . That is dirt on his neck. A little more color on his breast. A few saddle feathers have a little barring.



The sire of these two is already in a pen with the original CW hens and a few of his daughters.

I know this one is not an accepted color variety for Wyandotte...thus not a Heritage ...BUT how does the type conform to the standard?
11 month old Blue Columbian cockerel out of the same sire as those above and a Blue Wyandotte hen. He will be in a pen with Columbian hens.

 

[3riverschick]

Coccidia is not a toxin. It is a nasty protozoa that multiplies in huge numbers when an animal is stressed for any reason. The odor you smell with a bad case is actually the lining of the intestines sloughing off, and rotting. Parvo in dogs , which is caused by a virus, has the same effect. All the charcoal in the world won't stop that from happening, if your wild bird population carries the right oocysts for infection of your flock. If your wild bird population is clean, you are in luck. If not, use medicated feed.

Hi Dragonlady,
I never intimated that charcoal could prevent the protozoa. It is a toxin absorber.
An inert substance. All it does it absorb toxins so they can be moved out of the system
thru the poop. Yes, it is also used to help treat the effects of parvo in dogs.

 

[BGMatt]

Good discussion.

Three cock choices from the 2013 hatch for the Columbian Wyandotte pen this year...

I like this one best: 11 month old cockerel with nice neat comb and wattles with fine texture, good leg color, compact tail, full breast with good spacing on legs.



2nd choice 14 month old cock. His comb is thicker and wider, but follows the head well. Tail is a little longer..broad back . That is dirt on his neck. A little more color on his breast. A few saddle feathers have a little barring.



The sire of these two is already in a pen with the original CW hens and a few of his daughters.

I know this one is not an accepted color variety for Wyandotte...thus not a Heritage ...BUT how does the type conform to the standard?
11 month old Blue Columbian cockerel out of the same sire as those above and a Blue Wyandotte hen. He will be in a pen with Columbian hens.

I'll just kind of jumble all my thoughts together here. Don't much care for the pattern on either of the first two, the saddle area especially need more black. 2nd bird has the better head of the two Columbians despite the larger comb, he appears to have a broader, rounder skull. First bird can't tell if just photos or not but he appears to have a flat chest rather than rounded, compared to the third bird here. Third bird has really nice body and excellent wing carriage from what can be seen here, his tail I'd like to see if the wind isn't messing with it, if it's naturally that way it's too high. Overall though barring the tail issue (and factors we can't see, like a side by side size comparison) I think the 3rd bird, the Blue Columbian is the best choice here. Although for Standard purposes only half his offspring (if bred to Columbian) would be showable. I like his front end, he has a nice strong head, but not the oversize comb like #2 has. What we can see of his pattern is better marked than either of the first two, although he also needs more color in saddle. He has a nice underline, rounded but not too fluffy at least from photo. Biggest concern is that tail angle of course, if this is his natural tail angle then he's a cull because of the squirrel tail.

 

[Lacy Blues]

I'll add to that...the walls of intestines are complex and are not just a blank slate where you will either get coccidia or will not according to the numbers present in the animal's environment. There are other microorganisms at work that can help inhibit an overgrowth of coccidia merely be having a stronger colonization in the walls of the intestine and their metabolism actually secretes chemicals that inhibit the reproduction of coccidia, therefor preventing an overgrowth of the protozoa internally. Keeping a balance in those bowel bacteria is key to it all, for if you have balance internally your birds can withstand some levels of external imbalance. A healthy colonized bowel is a big part of a bird's immune system that many overlook and can protect them from so many things. What few realize is that this healthy culture also produces proteins and B complex vitamins, increases absorption of key nutrients and even discourages overgrowth of parasites by making the bowel an inhospitable pH for their existence.

To have complete protection, one must have balance inside and outside with good cultures in both areas. Overstocked soils that are overloaded with nitrogen and are impacted and cannot be cleansed by the rains are hard to establish with a healthy culture and insect life that could inhibit the overgrowth of coccidia. It's not just damp and steamy environments that produce this overgrowth~though they are more prone~ but an imbalance in the soil life itself by poor drainage, over stocking, compact soils and never any attempts to correct the condition of these soils. They are just a petri dish for the wrong kinds of organisms to take hold and thrive, but are not ideal for the healthy ones that can keep the bad ones in check.

This is why some have taken a more proactive approach to livestock feeding by introducing some prebiotic and probiotic cultures into their intestines...and the commercial feed companies are also adding these things now as well.

Among the huge list of type of bacillus found in lactobacillus cultures, one in particular grabs my interest and is applicable here~Pediococcus acidilactici

Pediococcus acidilactici can function as immune modulators. Animals fed with P. acidilactici have shown enhanced immune responses against infectious coccidioidal diseases.

Pediococcus acidilactici is also known to prevent colonization of the small intestine by pathogens like Shigella, Salmonella, Clostridium difficile and Escherichia coli among small animals.

Pediococcus acidilactici has not been stated in any literature to have toxic effects. Another potential benefit of using them as Probiotics is their use as alternative medicines against infectious parasitic pathogens like Eimeria* in broiler-chicken [6].



A healthy intestine is good for animal and human alike and is the very basic and most urgent place to start if one is going to improve overall flock health and protect them from disease transmission. Using meds is like putting a band aid on a wound that may occur again the next time one is near the dangerous object. It's best to build a guard against a dangerous object so that one never gets that wound in the first place.

So much better said than I ever could have. Thank you Bee!

 

[brahmabreeder]

We are assuming that the bird that started the conversation was in fact killed by cocci. I agree that may be most likely, but you can't positively tell without cutting the intestines open. Often a bird that is burdened by cocci can be killed by a co infection. Other gut diseases can cause similar symptoms. There is somewhere around a dozen species of cocci that can infect chickens. A few are the most significant.

Chickens can develop resistance if they are exposed at low levels. High levels exist where many birds have been concentrated over a period of time. Warm damp conditions can create conditions for a population explosion, overwhelming even adult birds that have been exposed prior. These same conditions can cause other pathogens to thrive, so often the birds are burdened by more than one thing.
Adult birds that have never been exposed to it, and are suddenly exposed to higher numbers can succumb to cocci.

Chicks are especially vulnerable because there is no acquired immunity, they are concentrated in a warm space, and possibly a humid environment. The conditions could be ripe for a population explosion.

Management is the best tool against cocci. Generally speaking adults that have been exposed to it before are fine if the bedding and grounds is kept in good shape.

Chicks that are provided clean bedding, in clean brooders, the bedding is well maintained, the humidity kept low, and are not overcrowded, are not as likely to suffer an outbreak. The best possible management does not eliminate the possibility so many use medicated starter.

Cocci can become drug resistant, so management is the best first option. I will use medicated starter when I need to. I assume at some point that I will.

You are most likely to have a problem when introducing new birds that have never been exposed to what you have on your yard, the birds have weak immune systems, or management is poor.

I cut the green things open( I believe I had the intestines ).
Before
Before
First half
Other half

 

[Beekissed]

That's just the cecal pouches and not the full intestine...those DO look pretty enlarged or engorged. The cecal pouches pretty much always look that color, depending upon what they are eating. If you'll look at the middle of the guts in this pic you'll see the darker portion of one sac of the secum. Other than the enormous amount of fat, this is healthy intestines in a healthy bird, though she was 6 yrs old. This is a cross section cut of the body with the guts where they usually are in the bird..just opened her up like a bird on the half shell for purely observational and learning purposes.




Here's a link to chicken anatomy but the pic of the real intestines in this article look pretty sickly to me. http://www2.ca.uky.edu/poultryprofi.../Chapter3_Anatomy_and_Physiology/Chapter3.pdf

 

[NanaKat]

Quote:
Matt, I really appreciate your critique! I started with one cock and 5 hens from a breeder who was getting out of large fowl to concentrate on Bantams.
Yes, the first Columbian cock does have a smaller head...not as wide. I see now the point about a lack of color down the saddle. These may be better pictures of his chest showing the front contour.


The second birds head is much wider like you point out. I was concerned the comb might be too big....the texture is rougher than the first bird. And the comb does lay on the contour of the head like it should. This picture is better on both the comb and the saddle color.


The Blue Columbian (3rd bird) is a project...not in favor with some...so I didn't post many photos of him. This photo shows a different view of his tail set. The pens have been muddy so that's what is on his neck.





The three birds are the left front, and the two center back. These birds all freerange and coop up together at night. Each cock has a few hens that follow his call around the barn, garden, pastures and yard. in the second photo, the BCW is on the right in front of the Birchen hen.

Note that some of those in the second photo have gone to freezer camp....

 

[BGMatt]

Matt, I really appreciate your critique! I started with one cock and 5 hens from a breeder who was getting out of large fowl to concentrate on Bantams. Yes, the first Columbian cock does have a smaller head...not as wide. I see now the point about a lack of color down the saddle. These may be better pictures of his chest showing the front contour. The second birds head is much wider like you point out. I was concerned the comb might be too big....the texture is rougher than the first bird. And the comb does lay on the contour of the head like it should. This picture is better on both the comb and the saddle color. The Blue Columbian (3rd bird) is a project...not in favor with some...so I didn't post many photos of him. This photo shows a different view of his tail set. The pens have been muddy so that's what is on his neck. The three birds are the left front, and the two center back. These birds all freerange and coop up together at night. Each cock has a few hens that follow his call around the barn, garden, pastures and yard. in the second photo, the BCW is on the right in front of the Birchen hen.

After getting a better look in these pictures I like the body type and tail angle especially on the second bird. Best. But his color is the worst of the three. The Blue Columbian I still like a lot but the tail angle is way too high. If your hens have low tails I personally would use the Blue Columbian, otherwise using the logic of "build the barn, then paint it" I would go with the second cockerel. That's just me and the way I read the standard. I do like the Columbian female on the right side of that last picture standing next to and just behind the blue. She has a nice back line.