Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[LeslieDJoyce]

Just remember Leslie that it is a lot easier to go down in size than it is to go up.  You don't want to get rid of an excellent cock bird because he is one pound overweight.  See if you can find a hen that balances him nicely. Perhaps she is at weight or a little under.  They say you get size and type mostly from the female.  I'm not sure I believe this outright but it's something I'm willing to test.   Like Bob used to say... kick the can down the middle of the road.  It isn't going to stay in the middle but keep kicking it back to the middle.  There is an advocate in permaculture circles that says "The problem is usually the solution."  meaning, I believe, that you can correct the problem by using the problem to its potential and by making it do what you want it to do.

Interesting!!

I think my initial breeder cock is a tad small ... but the cockerels seem to be getting bigger than he is. The oldest cockerels are starting to look more like their breed. Finally.

That means I'll be evaluating soon to move 5 or 6 of the older cockerels into the Cull Cage, and I'll keep 3 or 4 in the Cockerel Colony (I got a lot more female, so only have 9 cockerels from the first few hatches). Then I have a younger batch of cockerels coming along that will go into the Cockerel Colony until they are mature enough to compare to the older batch.

I'm hoping to get decent enough photos so I can post them and get some opinions about which ones to work with and which ones to eat.

I'm excited to be to the point where I need to be making decisions!

 

[3riverschick]

lol. Karen -- I've always heard it called Golden Duckwing or in Dorking vernacular (with shaded hackles), Colored.

Well RSSD is a Golden Duckwing but with Ar+/Ar+ and no Di/Di...instead of Ar+/ar and often Di/Di seen in Golden Duckwings.
You can tell RSSD by the deeper color of the orange on the shoulder. And the slight cream tint to the hackle
(which is a selection). Plus RSSD have no stripe in the hackle . I ran into them when I was trying ( and failing) to breed
true Golden Salmon Marans ( BBR).

 

[gjensen]

Size matters on many levels. One is that it provides an anchor of sorts.

I agree with Lacy that it is better to err on the side of a little too large. A bird of either sex that is too large can be useful. I do not agree with the notion that bigger is better.

The hen for size, and cock for color is a wife's tail that may have been beneficial because it emphasized the female side of the mating where the male was most commonly the emphasis. Naturally, because outside of a pair, he would have more emphasis overall. If all else is equal, and less sex linked genes, the contribution between a female and a male is the same. There will always be exceptions because of a variety of traits and familial influence. Still, overall, the influence is equal.

Generally speaking, if you paired a bird from a family that was uniformly in a size range, and paired it with a bird from another family that is uniformly in a different range of size .... the average size of the offspring would likely be intermediate of the two. There are too many variables to declare that this will always be true. It is a good start to understanding the inheritance of size. The problem with size is that there are many ways to measure it, and countless genes at work influencing it. It is not as if there is a single gene for size.

To test any of these genetic theories, you would have to test a large number of birds to come to an accurate conclusion. It would be easy to pair a dozen birds and draw a conclusion that would not be true overall.

One of the things I have had the hardest time with has been improving feather quality. I get how to do it, but getting consistent results has been difficult. It takes time, unless there is enough variation to work with.

Jersey Giants, historically, were not considered good setters because of their size. I would not be surprised to hear someone feel differently. I have never raised Giants. Still, the point is an example that size does matter.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

The Jersy Giant just would not be broken all summer and trampled a clutch of breeder eggs when we tried to use her as a foster broody. I couldn't let her set on an empty nest any more, so gave Dad the option of giving her some mutt eggs to try again, or culling her. He chose mutt eggs. She is now raising 3 mutt chicks ... or they are raising her as she seemed quite content to stay in the nest forever but has to get up and chase the babies.

Hatchery Jersey Giants were NOT my idea. They are super sweet but kinda sad.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
I need some breeding advice from very experienced people.

I need to make a decision by Monday morning. Here the conundrum. Walt Boese has left his SQ strain of Light Sussex in my hands. There is no fountainhead left. Senior, the 3x APA Grand Champion sire of my foundation trio died in Dec. 2013. Walt Boese is no longer breeding poultry. I have 3 generations here. 2 hens from the foundation trio. 3 cocks and 7 hens hatched from the foundation trio. A strain-cross hen; 2 pullets and a cockerel from a strain-cross breeding. That's 17 birds. I only have room to overwinter 12. There is no opportunity to build more housing before Spring. One foundation hen and her get... which consist of a cock and 4 hens are my 6 bird egg flock. They have to go to make room for this year's birds.
So what's the problem? Well the birds in the egg flock are one generation closer to Senior than this generation. Yes, I am closely linebreeding on Senior. But since I can't go back to him or his get, each generation gets further from him, even tho closely line-bred on him.
What about the quality of the egg flock ( sired by Junior) Well all the hens but the foundation hen have objectionable cushions. It appears they came from the dam of their mother.
So my question is : Having lost access to the fountainhead of the strain do I keep the generation closer to him ( Senior) , even with the cushions? Or rehome them and keep the next generation removed which doesn't have the cushions owing to their sire being Junior's son. ( thus dilutin the blood which caused the cushions I the other birds.
This seems to be a no brainer but I don't know what to do because I can't go back to the Boese flock.
Thanks for reading and any advice you can give.
Karen

 

[Lacy Blues]

Wow Karen, that's quite the opportunity. Even if those birds in your egg flock are closer to Senior, they have a disqualification don't they? A big one. You're right, its a no brainer. Go with the next generation as it is better. You'll be happier with the birds too. You don't really want to breed super close for multiple generations. You can develop inbreeding problems that way.

 

[Lacy Blues]

gjensen, can you talk a little bit more about improving feather quality? That is one of the things I was breeding for this spring and I don't know yet how successful I was. I know some birds, outside of the feather project have some really nice quality feathers this year so I'm pretty happy but I'll be looking to how they mature.

 

[3riverschick]

Wow Karen, that's quite the opportunity. Even if those birds in your egg flock are closer to Senior, they have a disqualification don't they? A big one. You're right, its a no brainer. Go with the next generation as it is better. You'll be happier with the birds too. You don't really want to breed super close for multiple generations. You can develop inbreeding problems that way.

Well,
The cushions a fault not a DQ. Maybe the thing to do is rehome all of the egg flock except their dam, the other foundation hen. I really think the cushion problem came from the mother of that egg flock foundation hen whose name is March. March's 1/2 sister ( by a different mother) is May. Now when I bred May to her son Tux this year, I got 1/3 of the chicks without cushions. I kept them. So maybe if I take March and breed her to either of May's sons, I can get no cushions out of March. That would be a big help. Plus, March is a great broody hen. She dearly loves to sit eggs. So I get rid of all of March's kids (5) and keep March to breed to either Knight and Day or to Tux. Whaddayathink?
Best,
Karen

 

[Wisher1000]

Hi,
I need some breeding advice from very experienced people.

So my question is : Having lost access to the fountainhead of the strain do I keep the generation closer to him ( Senior) , even with the cushions?

I know you said you needed advice from very experienced people, but I decided to give you my opinion anyway.

Keep the two best cockerels, and the best 10 females, regardless of their heritage. Pass the remaining (least desirable) cockerel and five (least desirable) hens on to someone who will use them to develop a related strain.

Quit worrying about Senior, he is gone, but his genes are alive and well in your birds. All you can do is use the best you have and raise lots and lots of chicks in hopes that one of them will be as nice as Senior. I understand what you are concerned about, but since you have to get rid of a set number of birds, regardless, it really is just a matter of using the best you have. Use the best cock over all your hens, and save the second best in case you need to replace him, or use the best cock over the five best hens and the second best cock over the rest of the hens.

As for the cushion issue. If the quality of the birds in each group is equal, except for the cushions, then dump the ones with the bad cushions, but don't discount them as a group if they have other qualities that are better.

George, I would like some instruction on improving feather quality. I have NO knowledge on how to do that other than through selective breeding.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Sounds like you've got the best answer already Karen. Good luck with those birds and congratulations on being entrusted with an entire fantastic flock of birds.