Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[3riverschick]

Does anyone have an opinion on Kalmbach 20% flock starter/grower vs. Purina start and grow( 18%)? I fed the purina feed( medicated ) this year to all of my Brahmas and they seemed to of done well on it. Yesterday I went to our local feed mill and just bought the chick starter there and he had the Kalmbach. Does anyone have a preference one way or the other?

Well, .....one of the experienced breeders here chimed in when I was grossing one day, looking for still another "sole ration" feed which would cause my birds to thrive, not just maintenance. he told me that these heritage breeds need above 20% protein to thrive. At the time, I was mousing around with 16,17, and 18% feeds. So I started looking around and one day, as part of a spilt order, my Agway store got in some "Agway Meatbird" crumbles at 22%. So I bought a bag and used it as sole ration from hatch thru life. Sussex are historically a meat bird after all. Wow! What a difference! The birds just glowed! Gained weight, filled out, feathers looking so good! Then after about 2-3 bags I couldn't get it anymore at my Agway, sigh . So I started looking around for another all flock sole ration. Meantime I was feeding them (at different times) Purina All Flock, Southern States Meatbird Maker or Purina unmedicated chick starter crumbles. All ok, esp. the Meat Bird Maker. However the Agway salesman had mentioned the Agway Meatbird was made by Cargill .. So after a few hours wandering on the Net I found out Naturewise Meatbird is the sister product to Agway Meatbird, both made by Cargill. Unfortunately, it's not local to me and the gas to get it just isn't doable. So for right now the birds are getting Southern States Meat Bird Maker.
As for fermented I am just not a fan. Too much work and I don't have that many birds that I need to economize on the feed. For less work, I can sprout Plotspike Forage Oats ( buy at TSC) and give the birds wonderful fresh green feed ( 4 to 7 day old sprouts) . Like they would get if they were free ranging. I am not sure why chickens need yogurt. If they are getting the right size and type of grit, then their gizzard can grind the food properly and the G.I. tract can uptake more nutrition from the food they are getting. I think it more important to feed the right size and type of grit at the right age to help the bird develop a larger, healthier gizzard when it reaches adulthood. Then it can better prepare its food for digesting.
Best,
Karen

 

[bnjrob]

Well, .....one of the experienced breeders here chimed in when I was grossing one day, looking for still another "sole ration" feed which would cause my birds to thrive, not just maintenance. he told me that these heritage breeds need above 20% protein to thrive. At the time, I was mousing around with 16,17, and 18% feeds. So I started looking around and one day, as part of a spilt order, my Agway store got in some "Agway Meatbird" crumbles at 22%. So I bought a bag and used it as sole ration from hatch thru life. Sussex are historically a meat bird after all. Wow! What a difference! The birds just glowed! Gained weight, filled out, feathers looking so good! Then after about 2-3 bags I couldn't get it anymore at my Agway, sigh . So I started looking around for another all flock sole ration. Meantime I was feeding them (at different times) Purina All Flock, Southern States Meatbird Maker or Purina unmedicated chick starter crumbles. All ok, esp. the Meat Bird Maker. However the Agway salesman had mentioned the Agway Meatbird was made by Cargill .. So after a few hours wandering on the Net I found out Naturewise Meatbird is the sister product to Agway Meatbird, both made by Cargill. Unfortunately, it's not local to me and the gas to get it just isn't doable. So for right now the birds are getting Southern States Meat Bird Maker.
As for fermented I am just not a fan. Too much work and I don't have that many birds that I need to economize on the feed. For less work, I can sprout Plotspike Forage Oats ( buy at TSC) and give the birds wonderful fresh green feed ( 4 to 7 day old sprouts) . Like they would get if they were free ranging. I am not sure why chickens need yogurt. If they are getting the right size and type of grit, then their gizzard can grind the food properly and the G.I. tract can uptake more nutrition from the food they are getting. I think it more important to feed the right size and type of grit at the right age to help the bird develop a larger, healthier gizzard when it reaches adulthood. Then it can better prepare its food for digesting.
Best,
Karen

The yogurt is for introducing more healthy bacteria into the gut and changing the pH, theoretically keeping bad stuff like coccidia from growing in the gut. The pH theory is same for fermented feed and using apple cider vinegar in the water.

Our chickens LOVE fermented feed. I don't make it for them - have too many scattered in the pasture to make fermented feed. But when their feeders drown in a bad storm and I have to dump the wet feed out, they just love eating the wet feed if it starts fermenting without going moldy. Winter is usually when this happens and the chickens are happy campers. But it's too much trouble to ferment feed for routine use when you have more than just a handful of chickens.

We are planning to get dairy cows and will then have plenty of milk, whey, etc. to throw out to the chickens and see how it does for them - like their ancestors a century ago.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I'd love to have my own dairy available. The Feeding Poultry book says adding dairy to vegetarian poultry feed can be super helpful for the birds. On the other hand, I've also read dried whey protein can make the birds gassy. Not sure how true that is ... dried whey protein concentrate might be a convenient protein boost for my birds since I'm going soy/canola-free and have about maxed out the fish meal ...

We do Fermented Feed here. We raised this year's heritage dual purpose birds on FF, and it is what the breeders got. The birds seem to be growing well on it. We have a corner of the kitchen devoted to the FF bins and buckets -- not everyone can do that ... or would want to. It really isn't too much work once we got the system worked out. There are about 50 birds in the breeder area -- they only get FF and forage. We give a bucket of FF to the laying flock every day (100+ birds), but they also have good forage and pellets and they sometimes don't clean up the FF in one day. Fermenting the pellets means we don't have to get crumbles for the babies, which is convenient.

I've done a ton of research on how/why FF is beneficial to the birds as it kinda seemed like a hairbrained idea when I first heard it. From what I've read in actual science research, FF seems to increase gut health and helps reduce parasites and bad bacteria in poultry flocks, which is great. General fermentation research indicates fermenting cereal grains reduces anti-nutrients and increases protein. It is also one way to introduce good pre- and pro-biotics and certain vitamins.

I tried growing fodder and failed. We are now trying to improve our pastures instead. Fresh green stuff seems very important for healthy birds. I consider it a priority.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

People wanting some of the benefits of FF without all the hassle might look into yeast. The Diamond V website has good research about yeast. Purina just changed the formula of Leyena to include yeast. Lots of boutique brands of poultry feed include yeast.

 

[brahmabreeder]

I suppose I could always try raising a batch on one feed and another on the other and see what happens. The only problem is I like to feed the medicated feed. Last year I decided to scrap the medicated feed and regretted it. My young birds suffered from coccidiosis. I could just put corid in their water for the non-medicated feed

.

 

[Lacy Blues]

Anyone looking to add yeast to their feed needs to remember that this is not bread yeast. There is a product called Nutritional Yeast and it has something like 36% protein (if I am remembering correctly).

I ferment my feed. It is not difficult and only takes a few minutes to add water to the bucket every day. Right now I'm feeding around 100 birds. Fermenting does not increase protein, it makes the protein in the feed more available to the bird.

I expose my chicks to my adult flock by putting them into a coop where the adults have been. I don't sterilize pens. I clean them out most of the way and add shavings.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

There are a couple different types of yeast used as nutritional supplements ... Brewer's Yeast, Nutritional Yeast, and then there are livestock feed-grade yeasts.

Here are links to the two "human grade" yeast supplements ...

Brewer's Yeast is often recommended as a supplement for ducks for the niacin ... http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323569/2 You can see it is 55% protein. There are even some companies selling Brewer's Yeast with garlic (I think) for poultry.

Nutritional Yeast is often recommended to vegetarians for the B12 they add to it. It has more niacin than Brewer's Yeast, yet I have never received an answer when I question why it isn't recommended for ducks instead of Brewer's Yeast. http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/custom/1323565/2 You can see it is 71% protein. Before I started using the custom feed, I mixed Nutritional Yeast into our Fermented Feed just before it went into the troughs. I had the local big discount grocery store order it for me in bulk. I also use it pretty often as popcorn or pasta topper. It's kinda cheesy. Yum.

And here is a link to the Diamond V page that talks about the application of their feed grade yeast products for poultry. The have different strengths of yeast, with different protein concentrations, and some with selenium, which is supposed to be good for male fertility in breeding birds ... http://www.diamondv.com/species/poultry-nutrition-and-health/ (We use either the Green or the Organic version for our custom feed, depending on which the mill has on hand/ordered.)

 

[NeilsHamburgs]

If your strain is prone to cocci, do not use anything other than medicated starter. There's a reason why they make it. Coccidia affects many species of animals and you can lose a whole pen of chicks overnight to it. There are some breeds that have a strong tolerance to it but none are immune. And remember medicated feed will not cure an outbreak once it's begun, so it's better to keep them healthy from day one.

 

[fowlman01]

At this property I have to use medicated feed for several weeks or I will lose the young birds to cocci. After a couple months they get unmedicated. After that they are bullet proof.

Walt

 

[brahmabreeder]

I was going to do the same thing but tractor supply only has the medicated for the fifty pound bag.